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35C3 preroll music
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Herald Angel: Judith Okonkwo is a
technology ex-evangelist, a business
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psychologist and a co-founder of "We will
lead Africa". In 2016 Judith set Imisi 3D
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creation lab, which is building the
ecosystem of extended reality technologies
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in Lagos, Nigeria. So, please welcome
Judith. And let's have her talk.
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Judith Okonkwo: Thank you. Thank you very much!
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applause
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JO: Good afternoon everybody. Thank you
all for coming today. I am going to talk
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to you a little bit about the work that
we're doing in Lagos, Nigeria. Just
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generally about that and then about some
specific projects that we've been involved in.
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So usually, when I'm speaking, people
say: Wow, you're doing virtual reality in
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Nigeria? How come? Why? How did you even
think of starting that there? Let me tell
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you a little bit about that journey. Now,
I don't know if many people here have been
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to Nigeria, but just to give you some
context: it's a country in the western
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part of Africa. Right now and the
population is estimated to be about 190
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million people. So, there are a lot of us.
The projection is that by 2050 though, we
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will be the third most populous country in
the world, right. Third after China first,
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and India second. It's also a country of
lots of different cultures and lots of
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different languages. At last count there
are well over 200 of these. Very diverse.
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So, in terms of VR, we started a creation
lab there in Lagos called Imisi 3D. Imisi
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is a Yoruba word and Yoruba is the
language of the Yoruba people who you find
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in the southwestern part of Nigeria. The
word means 'inspiration'. We started out
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really small. We, well basically I, got a
computer, a VR ready computer, a few
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headsets, a few books on virtual reality
and set up in one of the leading hubs in
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Lagos, called the Co-Creation
hub. So basically, that's what it was.
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That was the start. A desk in a corner
where we said: Hey, if you're even
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remotely curious about this technology, if
you want to know what's possible with it,
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then come on down. Because as you probably
remember, in 2016, a lot of people were
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saying: This is the year of virtual
reality. There was a lot of expectation
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that it would come into its own in some
way and there was a lot of excitement
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about it and we felt that that was a story
that we needed to be a part of as well for
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a number of reasons that I'll explore. So,
in Nigeria if you think about the country
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say 5, 10 years ago, certainly we weren't
on the, you know, on the global map for
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being creators. We were in some fields.
So, for example you would always be able
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to mention super talented Nigerian Authors
for example. But when it came to
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technology I don't think we were being
thought of as creators a lot. Even though
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a lot of creativity was happening, even
though a lot of innovation was happening
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in the country. And there's been a real
drive, a real need, to shift that
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narrative from one of consumption, where
we're just a market where electronics
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technology is being sold, to one where we
are actually adopting these technologies
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and using them for our own purposes.
Making them work for us as well. So, being
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able to move that needle from consumption
to creation. Back to the start. We began
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on the first week of July in 2016 and that
first week we had a virtual reality
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showcase. This is a picture from the
event. We asked people to come, you know,
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if you're curious, if you've never tried
it before. If you're wondering what this
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word that everybody's been talking about
is. And that day, over the course of about
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five hours, we had about 100 people come
down to try out VR, talk about VR, find
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out what the possibilities might be with
this technology, figure out if it's for
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them. And what's really interesting for me
personally is that, back then in 2016,
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that summer when we had people come into
our space, probably 90 percent of them had
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never tried out virtual reality before.
They maybe heard about it, might have seen
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a Google Cardboard, but you know, they
didn't really know what it was. Today when
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I have events like this, at least half of
the people coming in, at the very least
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half, would have tried out VR. So, it's
just great to see even with time and with
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activity, how things can change. But on
this day in 2016 we had people come in
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and, you know, they were challenged to
think about what is possible with this
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technology. But then it seemed like a lot
of talk. You know, you come in, you put on
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a few headsets, you try the Samsung Gear
VR, you maybe try a Google Cardboard, you
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start to talk. But then what next? And
that's something that we really wanted to
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make different. You know, let it not just
be talk. We wanted people to know that
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these were technology that they should use
to create as well. So we decided to have a
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hackathon. Then, when it held in November
2016, it was the first virtual reality
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hackathon in Nigeria. And promoting the
belief that we have, that these
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technologies are actually tools, that we
can use to create solutions, we challenged
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the participants to think about creating
solutions for either education, healthcare
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or tourism. Now we chose these particular
sectors because, we'd recognize that these
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are areas in which there was quite a bit
of scope for immediate significant impact
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from a place like Nigeria. And here's what
came out of it. In the picture there you
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can see what was the leading hack by the
winning team. It was a product that they
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called "learn" but actually spelt L E V R
N and it's an experience square, as you
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can see there's a leap motion attached to
a Samsung Gear VR. And it allows you to
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learn how to code using hand based
gestures. So it's really exciting to see
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people thinking about how they could push
the boundary beyond what was even just
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traditionally possible with the gear VR as
it was then. And to start thinking
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creatively about how you might use these
technologies and tools to learn.
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Especially, you know, in disciplines that
were always challenged about how best we
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can get people to learn and move with the
times. OK. So, I've got a few numbers up
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on the screen. I wonder if anybody knows
what they might refer to?
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silence
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JO: Anybody? No? Okay. So the first one,
263 Million, is a number from UNICEF from
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2014. And then, that was the estimate
about the number of children who were out
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of school in the world. The second number,
13.2 Million, is a number out of school
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children in just Nigeria. And that final
number, 1 Billion., that's a number of
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children in the world who don't really
have access to good quality education. You
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might wonder why have these numbers up
right now. And that's because I believe
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that virtual reality is something that we
can use to tackle these kind of
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statistics. One of the things that we're
exploring in Lagos, is looking at VR for
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schools. Now certainly back in 2016 when
we were starting out, quite a lot of the
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attention with VR was being put into
sectors like gaming and entertainment. But
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as I mentioned, we we've been wanting to
shift the needle to to other sectors to
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see ways in which we can adapt and use it.
And I think that actually VR, despite the,
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you know, the common perception that it's
perhaps elitist, perhaps expensive, in its
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low cost form could actually be a solution
for education. And this is how it might
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work. Imagine if we took low cost VR,
something as simple say as a Google
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Cardboard, mobile phones, and we all know
the story of mobile phone penetration
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increasing daily in Africa across the
continent, solar portables because in some
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places electricity from the grid is not
reliable. And with that you have a device,
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that once you have the right content
available for it, is an all in one
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learning solution that's fairly portable
and can be deployed really just about
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anywhere. Now for me, this is one of the
super exciting possibilities with a
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technology like virtual reality, that we
can go into schools, or even the 13.2
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million out of school children, go to them
and give them a device with the right
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content that will allow them to start
learning. And learning in ways that were
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not possible because, if you were to go to
a traditional public school, I mentioned
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we are 190+ Million people, the
infrastructure is challenged in terms of
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trying to deal with that number, and
you'll easily have classrooms with over
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100 children in them. Which means, that
you're very limited in terms of the
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interaction that's possible between
student and teacher, and also with the
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amount of infrastructure that you can
provide. But as you know with VR, whether
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it's a virtual lab where they can do
experiments, whether it's the opportunity
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to visit the pyramids in Egypt or even to
explore the solar system, all of a sudden
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opportunities and experiences that would
not be available even if, you know, we
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suddenly kind of like diverted our whole
budget to education, are now possible and
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I think that's really exciting. And that's
just a picture from one of the schools
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where we have been going in to explore
using virtual reality to supplement the
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curriculum for education. Education is one
possibility, but something else that also
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excites me about these technologies and
what is possible, is when it comes to art
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and culture. This past week one of the
leading African philosophers, a Nigerian
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woman called Sophia Oluwole, died and she
was a very, very big supporter, promoter
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of African culture, of Nigerian culture
and of dipping into your heritage to take
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that what was useful there and bring it
and use it to help to define the life that
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you're living today and the one you want
to create for the future. And I
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particularly like this, that you know,
from one of her papers where she says it's
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up to us and she was really calling out to
everyone to discover and promote a
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reliable African intellectual atmosphere
based on narratives presented in the truth
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of their language and authenticity. And I
bring this up now because I think that
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that is something else that this
technology enables us to, in a sense,
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convey our reality and tell stories and
the truth of our language and authenticity.
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And I want to tell you about two projects
that relate to that. The first is one that
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brings Nigeria and Switzerland together.
So, earlier this year I was approached by
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a team around the IAF festival in
Switzerland. It's a festival that is
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focused on contemporary African art
predominantly photography and it's held in
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Basel each year. Now each year, along with
photographies that are exhibited, they add
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an element of contemporary art. This year
it happend to be virtual reality. And for
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that, they said: Well, what would it be
like if we were to juxtapose living in
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Switzerland - take a city, Basel - and in
an African country Nigeria. Let's take a
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city, Lagos. What would that look like.
So, what we created was something called
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Reality Check. It was a very simple VR
experience actually. But one with a lot of
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potential and possibility. What we did was
map out a number of locations. So, we took
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traditional places that you would visit.
If you've been to Brasel you know it's
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quite compact, and it's really easy to
walk around the center of the town. And we
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took places like a church, a shopping mall, a
school and map these, and then wanted
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to do the same in Lagos. Now Lagos is
quite widespread. So we chose a particular
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neighborhood, Yaba, and then did the same.
We went to a church for example and
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captured the space with 360 video. And
what was then possible was that, when you
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came to this festival in Switzerland, you
could go on a walking tour of the city.
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But alongside that tour of Basel you could
also have one of Lagos. So, you could walk
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to the church in Basel, seen in the
picture there. And while there, you would
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then have an experience of a church in
Lagos. We have, you know, over the course
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of the week that I spent there with them a
whole series of people come round to come
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and figure out what it might be like, to
step into a space in Lagos, Nigeria if
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only for a few minutes. Now each of the
videos was really short and just about two
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minutes and I'm actually going to play one
for you to see. But what was exciting for
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the people who tried it out, from what
they said back to us, was just being able
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to shift your reality in a way that, as we
know, is not possible with traditional
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media, not with the books you read, not
with the videos you watch in 2D. Well, let
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me show you one. So here we are. This is
the church in Lagos.
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JO mumbling Let's just get that...
voices in the background of the video
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JO: And what we did is, during a weekday
we were able to go in. Where the camera is
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positioned, is up where the choir
traditionally sits on Sunday. And it
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happened to be a day when - it's a
Catholic church by the way - they were
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getting ready, I believe it was a
benediction service, so you can hear he
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has some of that going on down there. Here
we are now in the (???) ave.
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voices in the background of the video
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JO: And so this video is much like the
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others. They were all roughly two minutes.
The camera was stationary. And what we
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wanted to create was just the impression
that, much like you were doing if you were
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doing the walking tour, where you'd get to
a location and stand and look around. That
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you have that same experience in Lagos
that you walked into, you know, the
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location in question. You stood at a spot
and you were able to look around and
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observe what was going on for a minute or
two.
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Video is still playing, no sound other than the voices in the background
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JO: Just give me a second. OK.
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And that experience that I just showed in
the church was also done in locations like a
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university, a school, a library in Lagos,
a bank, a Medical Center. So, just little
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vignettes if you will, of life, everyday
life in the city that you're able to
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share. And we're hoping to do the flip
later on, where in Lagos you will then be
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able to have the 360 experiences of these
locations in Basel for people who are in
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Lagos. So, moving on and exploring art and
culture. I have this other quote that I'm
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sure a lot of people have seen around
quite a bit. And I first encountered it in
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one of Chinua Achebe's novels. It says:
There is that great proverb - that until
00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:38.890
the lions have their own historians, the
history of the hunt will always glorify
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the hunter. And of course you know, we
know how this applies in lots of ways. We
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talk about the way, you know, history
might have been told. History as we know
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it traditionally, might be repurposed if
it's taught from another perspective for
00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:01.759
people around the world. But storytelling
I think, is particularly important with
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360. And what was exciting for me as well
earlier this year is, when we had a member
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of our community, the Imisi 3Dcommunity in
Lagos, actually go and shoot what was the
00:20:15.110 --> 00:20:21.640
first 360 documentary. And this is just a
short, about four or five minutes long.
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But it's the first Nigerian made 360
documentary in one of the internally
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displaced people camps that we have in the
north eastern part of the country in
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Maiduguri. And this short documentary in
Bakassi actually tells a story of a boy
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called Modu, who is an insurgency orphan.
He's about eleven years old, but he has
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lost his father to the issues with Boko
Haram in the north eastern part of the
00:20:50.690 --> 00:20:57.230
country. And his mother as well. So, he
lived with his grandmother in an IDP camp
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and you know, was someone who, through
whose eyes we could start to understand
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what it really means to be in that space,
to understand that tragedy a little bit
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more. We had a screening for this
documentary in Lagos in November, but even
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before that, I think what's really
compelling is that we have had people who
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had even been to IDP camps in the
Northeast and other parts of Nigeria. And
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when they came and they experienced "In
Bakassi" what they would say is: This is
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even more real than being there. Now, at
face value you might think: Well, what are
00:21:39.130 --> 00:21:42.871
they talking about? And when they broke it
down, what they were telling us was, that
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when you are actually there in the camps,
you're overwhelmed by all that's going on.
00:21:47.190 --> 00:21:53.769
There's so much activity, so much noise,
so much jostling, that you are not really
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able to process what's happening around
you. But when you have the experience in
00:21:59.879 --> 00:22:07.440
VR like this, through a 360 video, you're
then really sensitive and focused on the
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experience as it is, on the story that
you're hearing, in this case Modu's. So I
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am going to just play a little bit from
the screening, not the documentary itself,
00:22:18.580 --> 00:22:27.049
for you to see what it was like sharing that
work with people in Lagos.
00:22:27.049 --> 00:22:49.809
music
00:22:49.809 --> 00:22:56.983
Toks Bakare: My experience watching the
documentary was intensely moving. I think
00:22:56.983 --> 00:23:03.294
because I had a phenomenally different
experience watching it in VR. There's the
00:23:03.294 --> 00:23:09.380
ability to look all around you and really
feel like you are immersed in the scene. I
00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:16.663
felt like I was in the camp and almost
going through what the little boy is going
00:23:16.663 --> 00:23:20.269
through. So that, that was an interesting
feeling that was different from watching a
00:23:20.269 --> 00:23:23.964
regular film.
00:23:23.964 --> 00:23:33.080
music
00:23:33.080 --> 00:23:41.389
JO: OK. So, I've talked a little bit about
some of the projects that we've done or
00:23:41.389 --> 00:23:47.470
been involved in in this phase with art
and culture, looking at things, like telling
00:23:47.470 --> 00:23:54.200
360 stories or being able to share reality
across different geographies. I want to
00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:58.029
talk a little bit more now about kind of
like the future and where we see ourselves
00:23:58.029 --> 00:24:03.840
going. I have the words "bright future"
there because I think we all agree that
00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:09.710
these technologies hold a lot of promise.
But there are particular challenges for us
00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:13.220
in a place like Nigeria, and one of them is,
you know, even just access to the
00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:20.059
hardware. So one of the things that we are
exploring is, what would it be like if we
00:24:20.059 --> 00:24:26.879
were able to, you know, actually deal with
that obstacle. What if we created a VR
00:24:26.879 --> 00:24:32.498
headset that was purpose built for our
locale. An all in one solar powered VR
00:24:32.498 --> 00:24:38.732
headset. One that's me with locally
sourced materials. How would that change
00:24:38.732 --> 00:24:44.077
things? Is that something that we are
trying to do a design challenge around. We
00:24:44.077 --> 00:24:49.659
started one last year but tried to do it
virtually. We'll be looking at in the new
00:24:49.659 --> 00:24:55.172
year having a team come into work on this
and attempt to build one. Now if we can do
00:24:55.172 --> 00:25:00.220
that, it becomes really exciting for us
because yes, we have platforms like
00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:05.350
YouTube where you can share 360 content,
and Vimeo, and others. But not a lot of
00:25:05.350 --> 00:25:09.919
people have access to headsets and other
elements of the technology and we can
00:25:09.919 --> 00:25:17.289
start to do something about that actively.
So looking at ways in which we can build
00:25:17.289 --> 00:25:21.789
and, you know, do R&D to suit our
purposes it's something that's very big
00:25:21.789 --> 00:25:28.279
for us. We are also working really hard to
build a community of content creators.
00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:33.309
People who will work with these
technologies, the people who will create
00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:37.805
the educational content that will make VR
for schools a reality in a country like
00:25:37.805 --> 00:25:43.710
Nigeria. For that we have started to hold
community meet ups. They've been running
00:25:43.710 --> 00:25:49.779
for over a year now. We have the very
first one at the Google office in Lagos
00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:55.770
and have since, you know, had the
community grow with people coming from all
00:25:55.770 --> 00:26:02.559
sorts of different sectors. From the arts,
you know, from technology, people from
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:08.049
business as well who are even looking at
the opportunities to commercialize the
00:26:08.049 --> 00:26:11.730
technology locally. And we're excited
about what's possible when all of these
00:26:11.730 --> 00:26:19.029
people come together. We're also trying to
connect communities across Africa because
00:26:19.029 --> 00:26:23.779
we know that it's one thing to try and
build communities locally and grow
00:26:23.779 --> 00:26:28.179
expertise there. But if we're joined up
together across the continent a lot more
00:26:28.179 --> 00:26:33.659
will be possible a lot quicker. Earlier
this year we held what was at that time
00:26:33.659 --> 00:26:38.510
the largest VR event on the continent,
where we had a Hackathon happen
00:26:38.510 --> 00:26:44.980
simultaneously across seven countries. We
had over 35 teams take part and the
00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:51.919
overall winning team was a team of three
females from Egypt. And much like that
00:26:51.919 --> 00:26:57.990
first one that I mentioned in 2016 where
we said create for education, or health
00:26:57.990 --> 00:27:01.700
care or tourism, we asked the teams to do
the same. So, create for education, health
00:27:01.700 --> 00:27:07.429
care, tourism. However this time we added
the environment, it happened around Earth
00:27:07.429 --> 00:27:14.360
Day, and also social justice. The winning
team created an experience that allows you
00:27:14.360 --> 00:27:18.620
to learn about how to take care of the
environment. And it was built for the HTC
00:27:18.620 --> 00:27:26.740
Vive. We also have a growing community
that is online on Facebook. They come from
00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:31.940
over 20 different African countries. It's
over 900 strong and growing every day.
00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:35.549
We're really excited about the
possibilities as we all come together and
00:27:35.549 --> 00:27:41.889
start to figure out how we can work and
create. We believe collaboration is our
00:27:41.889 --> 00:27:48.149
future, whether it's across these African
countries or further across the world, the
00:27:48.149 --> 00:27:53.110
work that we did with Switzerland, whether
it's being here and connecting with you
00:27:53.110 --> 00:28:01.190
all. But we know that together we can do
so much more. I usually end my talks with
00:28:01.190 --> 00:28:06.519
this challenge to people particularly when
I'm talking about using the technologies
00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:13.369
for the first time. Very, very excited to
know that the future is ours to create and
00:28:13.369 --> 00:28:20.010
with things like VR and AR, solutions
created in a way that maybe we're not yet
00:28:20.010 --> 00:28:26.899
imagining but perhaps we should. So what
will you do? I want to leave you with one
00:28:26.899 --> 00:28:39.710
last video that shows what it's like in
the lab.
00:28:39.710 --> 00:29:39.940
music
00:29:39.940 --> 00:29:51.265
JO: Thank you.
applause
00:29:51.265 --> 00:29:55.389
Herald: Thank you very much. We have time
for Q&A. There are two microphones
00:29:55.389 --> 00:29:58.830
here in the room. One in the middle,
microphone number 2, and one out to the
00:29:58.830 --> 00:30:02.491
side, microphone number 1. And there might
also be questions from the Internet. So
00:30:02.491 --> 00:30:07.029
please come up and we have already
question from microphone number 2.
00:30:07.029 --> 00:30:13.275
Microphone 2: Hello. So, thanks for the
presentation. There is a concept that, I
00:30:13.275 --> 00:30:17.906
don't know how valid it is, but the
Innovator's Dilemma. Basically, if you are
00:30:17.906 --> 00:30:22.625
already in a comfortable spot, you're not
going to push yourself too much, either in
00:30:22.625 --> 00:30:28.440
your community or your company. You have
either a new player, that is going to make
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:32.220
something radical and is going to
challenge you to make yourself better. And
00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:39.110
there was some discussion on this based on
the how for example maybe you not need the
00:30:39.110 --> 00:30:46.139
big DSL or fiber infrastructure to just
just use 3G or 4G and in some community
00:30:46.139 --> 00:30:50.265
with other infrastructure maybe for
example you do mobile payments, like in
00:30:50.265 --> 00:30:59.059
China. Could this kind of useage of your
free education be an equivalent of this,
00:30:59.059 --> 00:31:03.549
that maybe the classroom as we have now is
pretty good? But if you were so
00:31:03.549 --> 00:31:09.009
challenged, that you need to go much
further. Would it be like new oppurtunity
00:31:09.009 --> 00:31:14.759
to use much better way to do it.
JO: So thank you for the question. Yes,
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:22.470
actually I think it might be. And you know
you gave some examples about how leapfrogs
00:31:22.470 --> 00:31:27.200
have happened in other parts of the world
apart from the West, just because they
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:31.669
have accessed technology at a time that's
later than the West, and so they've been
00:31:31.669 --> 00:31:39.960
able to kind of like evolve in a way that
doesn't have to be anchored in the legacy.
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:44.000
You know, the history of the technology
and how it actually grew. I think the same
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:50.889
is true for for technology like VR being
used for education. And I think that
00:31:50.889 --> 00:31:54.620
because, you know the public schools I
mentioned, where you might easily have
00:31:54.620 --> 00:32:00.960
over 100 kids in a classroom, you'll be in
a space that is not like the modern
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:05.740
classroom in a private school in Lagos or
you know or one in the West. It's not
00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:09.480
like, you know ,where you have maybe a one
to 20 or one to 10 you know teacher
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:15.300
student ratio. It won't have all of the
infrastructure that aids learning as we
00:32:15.300 --> 00:32:20.440
know it today. So, you are then challenged
to think really creatively about what you
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:26.460
might do with with VR, what you might do
with whatever tool is brought to you. And
00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:32.330
that's why you know worth thinking about
the low cost, you know, VR that might be
00:32:32.330 --> 00:32:36.759
mobile device driven or something powered
in a similar way, because we know one of
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:41.080
the challenges will be power, you know, as
we know it. Because from the grid there,
00:32:41.080 --> 00:32:45.320
it's a challenge. And I think as you start
to innovate around those realities and
00:32:45.320 --> 00:32:51.059
create them, yes, we will be able to
leapfrog and potentially redefine what
00:32:51.059 --> 00:32:54.029
education looks like, certainly in that
space.
00:32:54.029 --> 00:32:57.200
Herald: We have question for microphone
number one.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:01.989
Microphone 1: Thank you very much for your
presentation. I have read a number of
00:33:01.989 --> 00:33:07.669
studies where people have found that, if
young children spend too much time in VR,
00:33:07.669 --> 00:33:11.830
if they're very young, it has a problem
with their cognitive development. And I'm
00:33:11.830 --> 00:33:17.860
wondering if you're thinking about a sort
of scaled approach at what age people are
00:33:17.860 --> 00:33:21.279
working with regular computer graphics and
then how they engage with VR.
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.480
JO: Absolutely
Microphone 1: Get a good education.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.200
JO: Thank you very much. Yes. So for the
work that we're doing at the moment with
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:36.100
VR for schools, where working with
children who are in secondary school. So
00:33:36.100 --> 00:33:42.019
those are children who are typically from
12 years up and we're very conscious, that
00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:47.710
there has been some information about the
you know side effects of VR. But there's
00:33:47.710 --> 00:33:51.140
not enough data yet. And so we're
consciously studying, as we're going
00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:55.999
along. We're about to start a formal pilot
in one of these schools, where we will
00:33:55.999 --> 00:34:00.419
actually have a researcher who's working
on the ground and documenting as we go on.
00:34:00.419 --> 00:34:06.869
We by default are limiting, you know, time
in VR, because we know, just from what we
00:34:06.869 --> 00:34:10.649
know generally about screens and eyes,
that it won't be great to have extended
00:34:10.649 --> 00:34:13.819
periods. But we're actively learning as
well.
00:34:13.819 --> 00:34:17.429
Herald: We have another question from
Microphone number 1.
00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:21.480
Microphone number 1: I see that you are
working with unity alert.
00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:28.810
But I was wondering if you're also working
with the more open standard of web VR?
00:34:28.810 --> 00:34:35.191
JO: We haven't yet worked with web VR. But
that is something that we are about to
00:34:35.191 --> 00:34:40.970
start exploring in the New Year.
Herald: We have a question from microphone
00:34:40.970 --> 00:34:44.099
number two.
Microphone number 2: Hi Judith, thank you for
00:34:44.099 --> 00:34:50.049
your talk again. I found it very
interesting and inspiring that you've
00:34:50.049 --> 00:34:57.129
presented the second talk where VR was
considered like an interesting or an
00:34:57.129 --> 00:35:05.869
important tool to create new narratives
maybe in a rather or historically rather
00:35:05.869 --> 00:35:12.790
oral based history culture or narration
culture and to use it for alternative
00:35:12.790 --> 00:35:19.000
narrations and create the new historian as
you say it like the maybe the non colonial
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:25.099
historian if you want. And so I also
wondered as I saw also in your
00:35:25.099 --> 00:35:29.180
presentation and this is also my
perspective as I have been working a lot
00:35:29.180 --> 00:35:33.359
with Goethe Institute and have once worked
in Kenya with Goethe Institute and I
00:35:33.359 --> 00:35:38.930
notice that like the sort of still the
Western platforms and of course the
00:35:38.930 --> 00:35:45.900
institutions with money are kind of the
only places and spaces where these things
00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:52.390
especially the technological things can
happen due to money reasons, are the only
00:35:52.390 --> 00:35:57.150
spaces that exist basically. For example
in Nairobi it was like this space that
00:35:57.150 --> 00:36:01.869
could be used by artists. There's some
other spaces in Nairobi but still it felt
00:36:01.869 --> 00:36:08.109
like this strong like power maybe even
more infrastructural power that's there
00:36:08.109 --> 00:36:14.560
and you've used the Google space and I saw
the Facebook logo and certificate. So I
00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:18.410
wonder is this anything you feel doubts
about? Or do you just think, ok we'll take
00:36:18.410 --> 00:36:25.380
their money and that's cool?
JO: Great question, thank you. It's
00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:29.390
interesting that you ask because for me
personally one of a kind of like the
00:36:29.390 --> 00:36:36.420
buggers for me is that a lot of the major
tech companies, in my opinion they don't
00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:42.490
see, they don't see African countries as a
real VR market. And you know you can see
00:36:42.490 --> 00:36:45.990
that just by the fact that their products
aren't even accessible there. You know,
00:36:45.990 --> 00:36:55.700
they are not available. That said you know
I think that I talked about collaboration
00:36:55.700 --> 00:37:01.490
a lot. I think that the way forward is for
us all to work together. They already have
00:37:01.490 --> 00:37:06.859
done you know a ton of work in terms of
what is possible with the technology and
00:37:06.859 --> 00:37:12.119
even what will be possible in the future.
Just by virtue of their R&D budgets
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:18.730
and what's possible. So I very much want
as we grow that we are working with them
00:37:18.730 --> 00:37:26.650
and not apart from them in any way. But
alongside that, I am very very concerned
00:37:26.650 --> 00:37:31.480
about as you know developing as ourselves
and creating as ourselves you know if it
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:35.900
goes like truth and authenticity that
Sofia was talking about that we have our
00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:43.480
own voice and we can do it without being
obliged to any one party. In that vein for
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:47.970
example the lab that we set up one of the
reasons was because we knew that access
00:37:47.970 --> 00:37:51.960
was difficult. We know that the equipment
is relatively expensive. Things like that,
00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:56.040
particularly given the purchasing power of
the naira. So we wanted to create a space
00:37:56.040 --> 00:37:59.309
where, if you wanted to do VR, or you
wanted to create you could actually come
00:37:59.309 --> 00:38:02.530
in and use the equipment and we provide
that and city and we'll be doing that in
00:38:02.530 --> 00:38:07.030
more states across Nigeria. But I think
its initiatives like that locally that
00:38:07.030 --> 00:38:11.800
will make sure that even as we partner we
can be true to ourselves.
00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:16.040
Herald: We have a question from microphone
number one.
00:38:16.040 --> 00:38:21.070
Microphone number 1: Thank you for your
talk. I'm sorry if you already covered
00:38:21.070 --> 00:38:28.160
this aspect. I came a bit late, but I want
to ask about if you are working towards
00:38:28.160 --> 00:38:33.740
minimizing the digital divide. How? What
are your effords about closing this. I
00:38:33.740 --> 00:38:37.901
understand that the project this is new,
but your long term vision, how does that
00:38:37.901 --> 00:38:44.950
help to empower the rural population also?
JO: Yeah. Thank you. That's a great
00:38:44.950 --> 00:38:49.530
question. Actually one of the things that
drove the creation of the lab in 2016 was
00:38:49.530 --> 00:38:57.560
even recognition of that digital divide.
By that time I just spent about two years
00:38:57.560 --> 00:39:03.230
in Lagos working within the tech sector
and just being able to kind of like tap
00:39:03.230 --> 00:39:09.130
into the talent that was there and see
what was possible. And I'd seen what you
00:39:09.130 --> 00:39:13.970
know young people were able to do there
with traditional technology, you know,
00:39:13.970 --> 00:39:18.490
with software development and all of that.
So I knew that in terms of you know a
00:39:18.490 --> 00:39:23.450
potential it was there in kind of like
limitless way but the challenge is always
00:39:23.450 --> 00:39:27.460
of course access to to the resources to
opportunity and things like that and
00:39:27.460 --> 00:39:31.329
that's what we try to do which is why that
element of community is so important for
00:39:31.329 --> 00:39:39.099
us. We we provide access to equipment and
resources in the lab. We also hold those
00:39:39.099 --> 00:39:43.270
community gathering so that people can
start to network with each other and
00:39:43.270 --> 00:39:50.350
collaborate together. We also look for
ways to support learning and growth and we
00:39:50.350 --> 00:39:56.430
do that by either holding activities or
sometimes doing things like offering
00:39:56.430 --> 00:40:00.220
scholarships for audacities virtual
reality nano degree, but we're very very
00:40:00.220 --> 00:40:04.780
particular about you know talent and
expertise being available kind of like
00:40:04.780 --> 00:40:08.760
locally and in country because that's
critical. That's why I don't know if you
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:13.470
were here when we were talking about Amber
Cassady 360 documentary. But for me what's
00:40:13.470 --> 00:40:18.910
really exciting is that you know a
Nigerian filmmaker will go acquire those
00:40:18.910 --> 00:40:22.830
skills and be able to be the one to make
that in Nigeria because of course there
00:40:22.830 --> 00:40:27.710
have been other 360 documentaries made by
say Al Jazeera for example you know and
00:40:27.710 --> 00:40:32.680
other media houses but of course they'll
be bringing their teams in to do that. So
00:40:32.680 --> 00:40:36.320
yes very very conscious of trying to to
narrow that.
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:41.170
Herald: We have two questions at
microphone Number one. Let's see. First one.
00:40:41.170 --> 00:40:43.400
Microphone number 1: First of all thank
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:49.406
you Judith for this great presentation.
Very short question and specific question.
00:40:49.406 --> 00:40:56.029
When it comes to VR in education there is
one major problem in my eyes. I don't know
00:40:56.029 --> 00:41:03.160
if you can answer this questions, but
there is no real business lobby for that
00:41:03.160 --> 00:41:10.150
right now. And when it comes to integrate
VR content into educational program there
00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:15.960
is one major hurdle which is how to
integrate that into the official program.
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:21.690
Which content can be transformed into VR
content? Are you working closely with
00:41:21.690 --> 00:41:32.117
regular let's say official education
authorities? Is any board like trying to
00:41:32.117 --> 00:41:37.347
identify which content and how to
integrate it progressively into your
00:41:37.347 --> 00:41:44.490
curriculums? Are you thinking about that?
Because there is some nice attempt like in
00:41:44.490 --> 00:41:52.120
Egypt, in China to do that, but one of the
major hurdle is, it is really hard to
00:41:52.120 --> 00:41:57.584
integrate it one time into the official
curriculums. So how do you identify the
00:41:57.584 --> 00:42:02.159
content and how it is working with the
officials?
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:07.210
JO: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Really great
question. Yes. I mean all of the
00:42:07.210 --> 00:42:13.270
things that you've just mentioned very
very real issues for us. When we wanted to
00:42:13.270 --> 00:42:17.230
start doing the VR for schools project the
first thing that we actually had to do was
00:42:17.230 --> 00:42:21.670
approach the education authorities in the
local area where we are the district
00:42:21.670 --> 00:42:25.450
office for education. So we had to bring
them on board really quickly because we
00:42:25.450 --> 00:42:31.141
even need their permission to be able to
go into a school and work. Beyond that we
00:42:31.141 --> 00:42:36.230
also decided to hold things like VR for
education roundtables where we would bring
00:42:36.230 --> 00:42:40.960
together different stakeholders. So, these
would be people from both the local
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:46.700
governments from both secondary and
tertiary education. And looking at both
00:42:46.700 --> 00:42:51.230
students faculty and sometimes even
parents because we very much wanted people
00:42:51.230 --> 00:42:55.200
to come together to help us cocreate what
a viable solution would be. And a lot of
00:42:55.200 --> 00:42:59.299
what you mentioned I mean that's what the
teachers were saying. How exactly does
00:42:59.299 --> 00:43:03.369
this actually work? You know with the
lesson you know, do you in the middle of a
00:43:03.369 --> 00:43:10.280
lecture put on the headset. You know what
makes sense. So, so far we've been doing
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:14.160
the VR sessions and special sessions that
are carved out from the school time where
00:43:14.160 --> 00:43:18.480
we go and see we're coming to do a session
with you. Going into the New Year though
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:22.700
where we're going to actually start a
formal pilot in a school. We're setting up
00:43:22.700 --> 00:43:27.570
a lab in the school and we're going to
have somebody who's, you know there with
00:43:27.570 --> 00:43:32.069
them, so that we can start to work with
the teachers to see how we can make VR
00:43:32.069 --> 00:43:38.730
learning an element of the traditional
kind of like classroom plan. So, I say to
00:43:38.730 --> 00:43:43.860
people imagine what it used to be like
when you would schedule a video as part of
00:43:43.860 --> 00:43:48.589
a lesson. What if instead of the
whole class is going to watch a video.
00:43:48.589 --> 00:43:52.930
Instead they were going to go and have a
VR experience as the content and the
00:43:52.930 --> 00:43:57.180
challenge around that and what's
appropriate to create. And that's really
00:43:57.180 --> 00:44:02.339
interesting, something that we've been
trying to tackle. When we first started to
00:44:02.339 --> 00:44:07.140
explore this. We were quite constrained in
terms of resources so we were just
00:44:07.140 --> 00:44:11.400
curating what was actually already
available and matching it to the national
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:16.960
curriculum for the junior secondary
school. So, we have some content that we
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:20.339
have seen can match to some of the
learning outcomes that are there at the
00:44:20.339 --> 00:44:24.400
moment. But we know that we do have to
create custom content. We particularly
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:29.000
have to create content that is much more
accessible for people locally both in
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:35.210
terms of language and in terms of kind of
the visuals that they are accessing there.
00:44:35.210 --> 00:44:39.089
We are working with a major education
publisher as well in Nigeria. And of course
00:44:39.089 --> 00:44:43.059
they have the expertise having created quite
a few of the textbooks that are in schools
00:44:43.059 --> 00:44:48.070
currently to help us figure that out as
well as collaborating with teachers in the
00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:51.819
pilot school.
Herald: And please don't be shy if you
00:44:51.819 --> 00:44:54.990
have any questions please come up to the
microphones and share them with all of us.
00:44:54.990 --> 00:45:00.420
We have time enough for quite a few more
questions. A question from mic number two!
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:04.640
Microphone number 2: Yes. Thank you Judith
for taking on the journey. I have a
00:45:04.640 --> 00:45:09.599
different question but also missed the
first minutes of your talk. As I see your
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:14.599
talk here also a contribution from the
Global South enriching us hopefully with
00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:21.020
your cultural perspective and my question
is: Do you think that this technology
00:45:21.020 --> 00:45:27.870
could help us to bridge cultural
understanding. Does it support empathy to
00:45:27.870 --> 00:45:32.990
get more of a picture. Well the trouble
from a Western perspective is that you
00:45:32.990 --> 00:45:37.240
know the African countries exporting
poverty that's not a major good selling
00:45:37.240 --> 00:45:42.079
good. But there is other elements that
might enrich or you might have to hack
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:46.190
into our minds. My question is: Do you
think this technology can actually help to
00:45:46.190 --> 00:45:51.900
support people understanding other
cultures better? Or is this for the moment
00:45:51.900 --> 00:46:01.420
more an experimental thing within your
control as cultural context to do your own
00:46:01.420 --> 00:46:06.950
educational or other purposes?
JO: Thank you for that question. Yes
00:46:06.950 --> 00:46:12.750
actually I do think that it will help us
start to understand and experience other
00:46:12.750 --> 00:46:22.010
cultures better and even experience
empathy. And I say this because even just
00:46:22.010 --> 00:46:26.530
you know when we first started the lab in
2016. So, a challenge for Nigerians you
00:46:26.530 --> 00:46:29.559
might not know but one major challenge
that people have when they want to travel
00:46:29.559 --> 00:46:35.250
is getting visas. Yeah the stories you
hear about visa refusals can be quite
00:46:35.250 --> 00:46:40.910
heartbreaking. But people were put on
their VR headset and sit in a chair and if
00:46:40.910 --> 00:46:46.309
you know with Oculus you have this option
under Oculus 360 photos of explore the
00:46:46.309 --> 00:46:51.349
world. So, you can go to basically any
country and people would do that. They
00:46:51.349 --> 00:46:55.339
choose a country and go. And one thing
everybody would say is you mean I can
00:46:55.339 --> 00:47:00.000
travel and I don't even need to get a
visa. That's the first thing that really
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:05.559
kind of like got people so curious and so
engaged and I think that cuts across
00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:11.760
regardless of who you are or where you're
from. Nigeria is not a known tourist
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:16.339
destination right now but there is
actually quite a lot to see in the
00:47:16.339 --> 00:47:24.320
country. And most people don't realize [name of region]
the south of the country has possibly the
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:28.570
greatest diversity when it comes to
butterflies in the world. So, some things
00:47:28.570 --> 00:47:35.450
like that are not known and are not explored
per se because it's not on the global map
00:47:35.450 --> 00:47:40.329
for tourism. But these are things that we
can then start to experience via virtual
00:47:40.329 --> 00:47:43.960
reality and that's looking at an angle
like tourism. I mean we can take it right
00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:50.829
down to the everyday to people's lives and
stories. Much like, I think we've seen in
00:47:50.829 --> 00:47:56.080
a sense with YouTube and what bloggers
have been able to create. But in a much
00:47:56.080 --> 00:48:02.079
more personal way now with with VR 360
that you can actually, say, step into my
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:05.280
home, step into my life and I think we'll
start to see more of those stories as we
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:09.789
go on.
Herald: We have about 15 minutes left and
00:48:09.789 --> 00:48:13.583
we have a question from mic number two.
Microphone number 2: All right. Thanks for
00:48:13.583 --> 00:48:19.330
the talk. Maybe learning is not a
privilege only to young people or did you
00:48:19.330 --> 00:48:25.170
consider teaching also older people or
people from other areas? And also are you
00:48:25.170 --> 00:48:30.441
reachable outside Facebook? Do you have
some webpage or something else?
00:48:30.441 --> 00:48:37.849
JO: Yes. So to address the last part
first: Yes absolutely outside Facebook.
00:48:37.849 --> 00:48:43.320
So, if you do social media we are on
Twitter as a Imisi 3D and Instagram as
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:50.510
Imisi 3D as well. We have a website
imisi3d.com and you can also e-mail us at
00:48:50.510 --> 00:48:57.039
hello@imisi3d.com. In terms of reaching
people beyond young people: Yes, that is
00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:01.930
that's very very important to us even as
we reach things like say VR for schools
00:49:01.930 --> 00:49:05.940
targeting students. We know that that is
not possible if adoption doesn't happen
00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:09.829
across the board. We need the older
people, we need teachers, we need
00:49:09.829 --> 00:49:15.501
principals to take it on board as well and
want to work with the technology. So, we
00:49:15.501 --> 00:49:20.770
embrace all. I mean the targeted project
might look like it is very student and
00:49:20.770 --> 00:49:24.690
young people focused but we work across
the board because we recognize
00:49:24.690 --> 00:49:29.510
stakeholders in all demographics.
Herald: Two questions at mic number one
00:49:29.510 --> 00:49:32.900
let's start with the first one.
Microphone number 1: Thank you Judith for
00:49:32.900 --> 00:49:38.920
the fantastic presentation. I was
wondering about, I've never heard I think
00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:46.289
VR and communal efforts and collective
working together in such a beautiful way
00:49:46.289 --> 00:49:52.180
because in the global north I think VR is
in a lot of cases in the framework of
00:49:52.180 --> 00:49:57.780
hyper individualized even isolated non-
social as in such an activity. So, I think
00:49:57.780 --> 00:50:03.839
this was a brilliant new way of seeing
that potential. I would be very interested
00:50:03.839 --> 00:50:10.309
in how you see that's kind of maybe a
difference. Yeah and if you think a lot
00:50:10.309 --> 00:50:18.309
about this isolation part as well.
JO: Yeah. So thank you. I mean I really
00:50:18.309 --> 00:50:23.410
believe that collaboration is the way
forward. I think particularly in a place
00:50:23.410 --> 00:50:29.550
like Nigeria, a place where you're already
resource challenged. I think if you saw
00:50:29.550 --> 00:50:33.849
the divisions early then there are too
many problems. And I think given the scope
00:50:33.849 --> 00:50:38.329
of these technologies we haven't even
begun to approach the boundaries of where
00:50:38.329 --> 00:50:43.279
they will be, where there's so much left
to discover and explore that we must come
00:50:43.279 --> 00:50:48.980
together to challenge ourselves and work
together and push boundaries. And that is
00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:56.400
enough scope for everybody to get
involved. Yeah, I see the individualism
00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:02.710
that you talk about in other parts. I mean
when I was first starting out one of the
00:51:02.710 --> 00:51:07.220
challenges for me was just even the
multiple platforms that exist and the fact
00:51:07.220 --> 00:51:12.369
that things are gonna be unified in one
way that we could all tap into. I hope it
00:51:12.369 --> 00:51:18.329
will change. But you know don't hold out
too much but I think where we can work and
00:51:18.329 --> 00:51:22.200
where we can actually impact stuff and
effect change the way that we believe it
00:51:22.200 --> 00:51:26.700
should be then we must.
Herald: One more question from microphone
00:51:26.700 --> 00:51:28.890
number one.
Microphone number 1: Thank you also from
00:51:28.890 --> 00:51:36.131
my side for you talk. I do have a question
more like personally. What was for you,
00:51:36.131 --> 00:51:42.500
since you started two years ago with this
journey on VR in Nigeria. What was
00:51:42.500 --> 00:51:47.660
for you the most surprising thing in this
journey.
00:51:47.660 --> 00:51:55.349
JO: The most surprising thing I have never
been asked that question so I'm pausing for a
00:51:55.349 --> 00:52:05.880
moment to think. Actually, so maybe not
surprising in the traditional sense but
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:14.730
like a couple of months after I started I
was at an event where Y-Combinator had
00:52:14.730 --> 00:52:18.589
come to Nigeria. This was in September of
2016. So it was a year where quite a few
00:52:18.589 --> 00:52:23.630
people were interested in what was going
on in Lagos. So Y-Combinator had come to
00:52:23.630 --> 00:52:28.279
Nigeria for the first time. And in one of
the business schools they were having a
00:52:28.279 --> 00:52:32.150
talk, a session and I was in the audience
and I just happened to look down on the
00:52:32.150 --> 00:52:39.549
road below me. There were two young men
and they had a phone and they were
00:52:39.549 --> 00:52:50.059
actually watching like a 360 video on it.
And stereoscopic the screen was split and I was amazed. I
00:52:50.059 --> 00:52:54.770
talked to them and I said "What are you
doing?" And they're like "Oh, we're
00:52:54.770 --> 00:52:58.721
watching this." I'm like: "Do you have a
headset?" "No" "Have you ever put it in a
00:52:58.721 --> 00:53:04.150
headset?" No, they hadn't. So luckily at
that event I had a stand and the
00:53:04.150 --> 00:53:07.839
exhibition space and I said well during
the break come down and we'll put it in a
00:53:07.839 --> 00:53:12.690
headset for you so you can actually see it
the way it was intended. And so during the
00:53:12.690 --> 00:53:16.869
break they came. They did that, they were
completely "wow". They after that went on
00:53:16.869 --> 00:53:22.660
and bought a VR headset. But for me why
that stands out is because we started the
00:53:22.660 --> 00:53:27.750
lab because we felt like we must do this.
This is time with these technologies if we
00:53:27.750 --> 00:53:31.700
want to be part of the story we get
involved now. And I think that was a
00:53:31.700 --> 00:53:37.340
beautiful example of the reality of that.
Herald: And please don't hesitate. If
00:53:37.340 --> 00:53:40.539
you're sitting in your chair thinking I
have something to ask but I'm not quite
00:53:40.539 --> 00:53:44.109
sure if there'll be time, there is time
for another few questions. So, please get
00:53:44.109 --> 00:53:47.420
up behind the microphones if there is
something you want to know. We have
00:53:47.420 --> 00:53:49.630
another question from microphone number
two.
00:53:49.630 --> 00:53:56.260
Microphone number 2: Thanks for the day.
You mentioned during one of the answers
00:53:56.260 --> 00:54:03.630
that one of the key indicator you crossed
were the schools basically is the ratio of
00:54:03.630 --> 00:54:10.380
the student pretty true or better. And
then I'm wondering if let's say imagine
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:15.330
managing a school and I'm considering your
as a solution, I have to consider my cost
00:54:15.330 --> 00:54:21.690
to go through what I get out of those
solution. So, which indicator is
00:54:21.690 --> 00:54:31.500
traditionally used in education system.
Which would VR in the classroom improve the
00:54:31.500 --> 00:54:38.600
most?
JO: Thank you. So for the VR for schools
00:54:38.600 --> 00:54:42.440
part that I've talked about where we're
actually targeting public schools. The
00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:48.210
real target that we want to address with
that is learning outcomes. We want to
00:54:48.210 --> 00:54:52.760
significantly improve learning outcomes
with virtual reality. And do this in a way
00:54:52.760 --> 00:55:00.200
where what children are not learning about
computers from a book of just from hearing
00:55:00.200 --> 00:55:04.190
the teacher talk about it but they can
actually see one in that sort of thing. If
00:55:04.190 --> 00:55:08.299
you want operate it where they are
learning about different experiments not
00:55:08.299 --> 00:55:13.680
just by hearing it spoken about but by
actually being able to do it in a sense in
00:55:13.680 --> 00:55:17.590
that virtual space. So, it's really
learning outcomes that is the key
00:55:17.590 --> 00:55:24.639
indicator for us when it comes to the
returns that we hope to see. But I think
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:32.750
that we will see depending on kind of like
what school sector we're looking at that
00:55:32.750 --> 00:55:38.980
change a little bit. So in the public
schools I think that it'll be easy to go
00:55:38.980 --> 00:55:44.720
in there and work targeting just learning
outcomes. When we go to the private
00:55:44.720 --> 00:55:49.230
schools with a lot more resources than
it'll be more new ones there because
00:55:49.230 --> 00:55:55.030
there'll be scope to do more things. For
example we will have schools where they
00:55:55.030 --> 00:56:00.750
can afford to set up labs to actually
create virtual reality. And for them some
00:56:00.750 --> 00:56:04.670
of the indicators that they might be
looking at are technical expertise in
00:56:04.670 --> 00:56:10.859
these students that sort of thing. Herald:
And if we don't have any more questions I
00:56:10.859 --> 00:56:13.600
think we should all thank Judith for an
excellent talk!
00:56:13.600 --> 00:56:17.585
JO: Thank you!
applause
00:56:17.585 --> 00:56:23.430
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