0:00:13.205,0:00:16.416 Second question: David Hopkins 0:00:16.416,0:00:18.407 "Where do you draw the line between 0:00:18.407,0:00:20.272 one who is a Christian, 0:00:20.272,0:00:21.932 but all their things are burnt up 0:00:21.932,0:00:24.599 at the Judgment Seat, 0:00:24.599,0:00:26.895 and one who is living in sin 0:00:26.895,0:00:28.619 and who is not a true believer? 0:00:28.619,0:00:30.804 David Hopkins is referring, of course, 0:00:30.804,0:00:33.619 to 1 Corinthians 3:10 and following. 0:00:33.619,0:00:34.897 Let me read them to you. 0:00:34.897,0:00:37.226 "According to the grace [br]of God given to me..." 0:00:37.226,0:00:39.971 This is Paul speaking.[br]"...like a skilled master builder, 0:00:39.971,0:00:41.321 I laid a foundation. 0:00:41.321,0:00:42.922 Someone else is building upon it. 0:00:42.922,0:00:45.066 Let each one take care [br]how he builds upon it, 0:00:45.066,0:00:47.084 for no one can lay a [br]foundation other than 0:00:47.084,0:00:49.874 that which was laid, [br]which is Jesus Christ. 0:00:49.874,0:00:51.704 Now if anyone builds [br]on the foundation 0:00:51.704,0:00:53.289 with gold, silver, [br]precious stones, 0:00:53.289,0:00:54.634 wood, hay, straw; 0:00:54.634,0:00:57.563 each one's work will become manifest. 0:00:57.563,0:01:00.249 For the day will disclose it. 0:01:00.249,0:01:02.762 Because it will be revealed by fire 0:01:02.762,0:01:05.239 and the fire will test what sort of work 0:01:05.239,0:01:06.393 each one has done. 0:01:06.393,0:01:08.239 If the work that anyone has built 0:01:08.239,0:01:10.049 on the foundation survives, 0:01:10.049,0:01:11.477 he will receive a reward. 0:01:11.477,0:01:15.211 If anyone's work is burned up, 0:01:15.211,0:01:17.343 he will suffer loss, 0:01:17.343,0:01:21.252 though he himself will be saved, 0:01:21.252,0:01:24.170 but only as through fire." 0:01:24.170,0:01:26.489 Now, David Hopkins asks this question: 0:01:26.489,0:01:29.530 Ok, if you've got these people 0:01:29.530,0:01:33.502 who are not building [br]with the right materials 0:01:33.502,0:01:35.961 and not building on the right foundation, 0:01:35.961,0:01:38.167 it seems like, 0:01:38.167,0:01:41.029 fire is going to come, [br]it's going to test it, 0:01:41.029,0:01:43.473 if their work is burned up, 0:01:43.473,0:01:45.545 this person's going to suffer loss, 0:01:45.545,0:01:47.108 though he himself will be saved, 0:01:47.108,0:01:48.569 but only as through fire. 0:01:48.569,0:01:50.465 So, what David is asking, 0:01:50.465,0:01:52.275 if you've got a person who goes to 0:01:52.275,0:01:58.952 the Judgment Seat of God in the end, 0:01:58.952,0:02:04.186 and everything gets burned up, 0:02:04.186,0:02:08.743 how is that different from a lost person 0:02:08.743,0:02:11.191 who shows up at Judgment Day 0:02:11.191,0:02:13.818 and has no good works? 0:02:13.818,0:02:15.942 Because clearly a lost person, 0:02:15.942,0:02:18.679 what's true of the lost? 0:02:18.679,0:02:20.392 There's none good. 0:02:20.392,0:02:22.281 They're children of wrath. 0:02:22.281,0:02:26.644 There's none that seeks God. 0:02:26.644,0:02:31.434 Right? 0:02:31.434,0:02:33.253 There's none righteous, 0:02:33.253,0:02:35.787 and there's none that does good. 0:02:35.787,0:02:38.652 And so, if a lost guy gets there 0:02:38.652,0:02:41.414 and he's got nothing to offer, 0:02:41.414,0:02:43.702 how is that any different [br]than the guy over here 0:02:43.702,0:02:51.066 who's a Christian and he's [br]got nothing to offer? 0:02:51.066,0:02:53.302 What do you think? 0:02:53.302,0:02:56.562 (from the room) First of all[br]I don't think everything is going 0:02:56.562,0:02:59.432 to be burned up. 0:02:59.432,0:03:05.467 This is basically creating a straw man. 0:03:05.467,0:03:08.629 Do you know what a straw man is? 0:03:08.629,0:03:10.260 A straw man is basically a man 0:03:10.260,0:03:12.220 that you can construct, 0:03:12.220,0:03:14.815 and then knock him down. 0:03:14.815,0:03:16.961 You basically create a situation that 0:03:16.961,0:03:20.223 really isn't real. 0:03:20.223,0:03:22.356 And that's basically [br]what we've got here. 0:03:22.356,0:03:25.059 Listen to me. 0:03:25.059,0:03:27.759 David is the one asking the question. 0:03:27.759,0:03:30.017 What we don't want to do 0:03:30.017,0:03:36.912 is decontextualize 1 Corinthians 3. 0:03:36.912,0:03:38.435 What do I mean by that? 0:03:38.435,0:03:39.836 Well, we don't want to forget 0:03:39.836,0:03:40.821 what the context is. 0:03:40.821,0:03:42.114 What is the context? 0:03:42.114,0:03:44.164 What in the world's Paul talking about? 0:03:44.164,0:03:47.933 What David is assuming is that 0:03:47.933,0:03:51.198 this has to do with all Christians 0:03:51.198,0:03:54.293 coming before the Judgment Seat 0:03:54.293,0:03:56.366 and having all their works examined 0:03:56.366,0:03:59.081 and potentially burned up. 0:03:59.081,0:04:01.969 That cannot happen, folks. 0:04:01.969,0:04:03.258 That cannot happen. 0:04:03.258,0:04:04.925 And I will show you verses 0:04:04.925,0:04:09.253 that absolutely show that cannot happen. 0:04:09.253,0:04:13.057 What David is doing is [br]he's taking this text 0:04:13.057,0:04:15.733 and he's forgetting the context. 0:04:15.733,0:04:17.777 He's forgetting what [br]it is that's actually 0:04:17.777,0:04:20.155 being spoken about here. 0:04:20.155,0:04:22.662 Do you remember what was happening 0:04:22.662,0:04:25.161 there at Corinth? 0:04:25.161,0:04:26.938 Paul's concern is this: 0:04:26.938,0:04:30.119 There are leaders at Corinth, 0:04:30.119,0:04:31.157 are there not? 0:04:31.157,0:04:33.137 There are leaders at the church there. 0:04:33.137,0:04:35.563 Do you remember what was [br]happening at the church? 0:04:35.563,0:04:38.246 You had schism.[br]You had division. 0:04:38.246,0:04:39.766 And how were they dividing? 0:04:39.766,0:04:41.901 In fact, Paul goes [br]right into this chapter 0:04:41.901,0:04:43.405 saying look, 0:04:43.405,0:04:46.858 you've got Apollos, you've got me, 0:04:46.858,0:04:48.307 you've got some watering, 0:04:48.307,0:04:49.622 you've got some planting, 0:04:49.622,0:04:51.030 and he says, you know what? 0:04:51.030,0:04:56.611 God's the One in the midst of all this 0:04:56.611,0:04:57.811 that's doing this. 0:04:57.811,0:05:00.420 God is the One that gives the increase 0:05:00.420,0:05:01.444 in all this. 0:05:01.444,0:05:03.036 And you guys are totally wrong. 0:05:03.036,0:05:04.047 You know what? 0:05:04.047,0:05:05.368 Men are nothing in this. 0:05:05.368,0:05:06.615 Men are nothing. 0:05:06.615,0:05:08.297 But bottom line is, 0:05:08.297,0:05:10.537 men's works in this ministry 0:05:10.537,0:05:11.875 are going to be weighed out. 0:05:11.875,0:05:13.139 What are they building with? 0:05:13.139,0:05:14.316 And you know what he's talking about? 0:05:14.316,0:05:15.674 He's talking about the church. 0:05:15.674,0:05:18.021 He's talking about the [br]foundation that was laid. 0:05:18.021,0:05:20.026 There's only one [br]foundation for the church. 0:05:20.026,0:05:21.440 It is Jesus Christ. 0:05:21.440,0:05:24.577 And we have to build the church 0:05:24.577,0:05:27.996 with the proper building materials, 0:05:27.996,0:05:28.897 which is what? 0:05:28.897,0:05:30.386 Not wood, hay, and stubble. 0:05:30.386,0:05:32.183 That's the stuff that gets burned up. 0:05:32.183,0:05:34.049 We need to build [br]with precious stones, 0:05:34.049,0:05:35.424 with gold, with silver... 0:05:35.424,0:05:38.241 the whole situation here revolves around 0:05:38.241,0:05:41.502 what we're building the church with. 0:05:41.502,0:05:46.149 What this edifice looks like. 0:05:46.149,0:05:47.826 And here's the thing, 0:05:47.826,0:05:51.310 were the men leading Corinth 0:05:51.310,0:05:55.588 building with good materials? 0:05:55.588,0:05:57.041 Were they? 0:05:57.041,0:05:58.583 Let me tell you something. 0:05:58.583,0:05:59.736 1 Corinthians 5 0:05:59.736,0:06:01.153 You know what we [br]find the leaders 0:06:01.153,0:06:01.970 were not doing? 0:06:01.970,0:06:03.475 They were not disciplining sin. 0:06:03.475,0:06:04.873 They were allowing sin there. 0:06:04.873,0:06:06.350 That's some wood, hay, stubble 0:06:06.350,0:06:07.796 that's going on in the church. 0:06:07.796,0:06:08.973 I'll tell you something else. 0:06:08.973,0:06:11.176 I'll guarantee you, it was even 0:06:11.176,0:06:12.393 in the leadership there, 0:06:12.393,0:06:13.496 that they were saying, 0:06:13.496,0:06:15.640 well, we're after Cephas, [br]we're after Apollos, 0:06:15.640,0:06:18.419 we follow Paul, we're the Christ bunch. 0:06:18.419,0:06:19.923 You don't think that was also 0:06:19.923,0:06:22.308 infecting the leadership there? 0:06:22.308,0:06:23.725 I'll guarantee you it was. 0:06:23.725,0:06:26.018 It wasn't just down at [br]the bottom of the ranks. 0:06:26.018,0:06:27.930 It was cutting through the whole thing. 0:06:27.930,0:06:30.832 And that's why he's [br]saying what he is here. 0:06:30.832,0:06:34.139 You know what they were doing? 0:06:34.139,0:06:36.079 They were making much out of men. 0:06:36.079,0:06:39.119 Rather than making [br]much out of Jesus Christ. 0:06:39.119,0:06:42.117 And he's saying, when it [br]comes to your ministry, 0:06:42.117,0:06:43.549 if you're in the ministry, 0:06:43.549,0:06:49.201 if you're involved in the [br]building of this church, 0:06:49.201,0:06:52.322 he's sending a warning. 0:06:52.322,0:06:54.833 You guys are building [br]with wrong materials. 0:06:54.833,0:06:57.134 Remember, Paul doesn't just [br]come out of the blue 0:06:57.134,0:06:59.120 when he talks about things. 0:06:59.120,0:07:01.995 He speaks based on the errors, 0:07:01.995,0:07:03.330 based on the problems, 0:07:03.330,0:07:04.629 based on the weaknesses, 0:07:04.629,0:07:07.144 based on the sin that [br]was evident right there. 0:07:07.144,0:07:08.408 You can believe it. 0:07:08.408,0:07:10.623 He's saying this because [br]there were leaders 0:07:10.623,0:07:13.687 in that church that were not building 0:07:13.687,0:07:16.277 with the proper building materials. 0:07:16.277,0:07:17.845 And so what we don't want to do 0:07:17.845,0:07:22.484 is make this an overall [br]evaluation for all Christians. 0:07:22.484,0:07:25.049 And you know what? 0:07:25.049,0:07:26.820 I don't believe at the same time, 0:07:26.820,0:07:28.394 that if you ask Paul, 0:07:28.394,0:07:31.238 Paul, do you really believe [br]that a God-called man 0:07:31.238,0:07:32.848 in the leadership of the church 0:07:32.848,0:07:34.191 is going to get to the end 0:07:34.191,0:07:36.563 and every single thing is [br]going to be burned up? 0:07:36.563,0:07:37.929 I think what you have here 0:07:37.929,0:07:41.372 is a severe warning that's meant to throw 0:07:41.372,0:07:44.265 and cast fear upon those men who are 0:07:44.265,0:07:46.270 in those leadership positions. 0:07:46.270,0:07:47.833 And his understanding is 0:07:47.833,0:07:50.427 that when he wrote inspired [br]letters to God's people 0:07:50.427,0:07:51.628 who were erring, 0:07:51.628,0:07:53.370 that the Spirit of God [br]would take that word 0:07:53.370,0:07:54.630 and correct the people. 0:07:54.630,0:07:56.286 And when you get to 2 Corinthians, 0:07:56.286,0:07:59.512 you see correction [br]was definitely taking place. 0:07:59.512,0:08:02.402 So I really don't believe [br]that if you ask Paul, 0:08:02.402,0:08:04.115 do you really believe that there 0:08:04.115,0:08:05.495 are going to be people there 0:08:05.495,0:08:07.836 that are God-called men, 0:08:07.836,0:08:09.917 God-gifted men that are going to have 0:08:09.917,0:08:12.805 absolutely everything incinerated. 0:08:12.805,0:08:15.337 I think he would say, no, 0:08:15.337,0:08:17.258 by the grace of God, there won't 0:08:17.258,0:08:20.080 absolutely be people in that situation. 0:08:20.080,0:08:21.939 But I'll guarantee what he's teaching 0:08:21.939,0:08:23.766 is that you can build in certain ways, 0:08:23.766,0:08:25.346 and that these [br]Corinthians had been 0:08:25.346,0:08:26.940 building in certain [br]ways that it was 0:08:26.940,0:08:28.123 going to get burned up. 0:08:28.123,0:08:29.988 It was no good. 0:08:29.988,0:08:32.848 There were a lot of [br]things happening there. 0:08:32.848,0:08:34.767 They were putting a lot of emphasis 0:08:34.767,0:08:37.983 on spiritual gifts in a [br]way that he had to correct. 0:08:37.983,0:08:39.701 There were so many errors there. 0:08:39.701,0:08:40.995 Things he had to deal with. 0:08:40.995,0:08:43.422 When he says that they were acting carnal, 0:08:43.422,0:08:45.754 I believe that he was [br]talking from the very top 0:08:45.754,0:08:46.583 all the way down. 0:08:46.583,0:08:48.555 They were building [br]with carnal materials, 0:08:48.555,0:08:50.633 they were building [br]with wood, hay, and stubble. 0:08:50.633,0:08:52.148 They weren't really [br]laying Christ out 0:08:52.148,0:08:53.324 as the foundation. 0:08:53.324,0:08:55.518 They were putting emphasis on things 0:08:55.518,0:08:59.652 where emphasis was not at all proper. 0:08:59.652,0:09:01.947 Emphasis on gifts, [br]emphasis on certain men. 0:09:01.947,0:09:04.340 They were allowing sin to go unchecked. 0:09:04.340,0:09:07.170 There certainly wasn't [br]an emphasis on purity. 0:09:07.170,0:09:09.707 When you're letting a [br]man continue in the church 0:09:09.707,0:09:12.791 living with his father's wife. 0:09:12.791,0:09:14.271 You've got people in the church 0:09:14.271,0:09:15.610 suing one another. 0:09:15.610,0:09:17.305 The rich people coming together 0:09:17.305,0:09:18.714 and not waiting for the poor 0:09:18.714,0:09:19.798 in the Lord's Supper. 0:09:19.798,0:09:22.656 They're not building on foundations 0:09:22.656,0:09:28.972 of love and humility and graciousness 0:09:28.972,0:09:30.852 and Christ-likeness. 0:09:30.852,0:09:37.786 They're not building with Christ. 0:09:37.786,0:09:41.778 Remember what Christ said, 0:09:41.778,0:09:43.892 many are going to say to Him that day, 0:09:43.892,0:09:44.993 Lord, Lord... 0:09:44.993,0:09:48.288 And what's He say? 0:09:48.288,0:09:50.838 It's not everybody that [br]says to me, "Lord, Lord." 0:09:50.838,0:09:54.051 Isn't it amazing how often [br]we come back to this text. 0:09:54.051,0:09:56.465 He said, it's not everybody that says, 0:09:56.465,0:09:58.693 "Lord, Lord," that inherits [br]the Kingdom of Heaven; 0:09:58.693,0:10:00.697 it's those that do the will of the Father. 0:10:00.697,0:10:02.200 Now look, I guarantee you this, 0:10:02.200,0:10:07.702 nobody's over here inheriting [br]the Kingdom of Heaven 0:10:07.702,0:10:10.369 who didn't live a life that was consistent 0:10:10.369,0:10:13.222 with doing the will of the Father. 0:10:13.222,0:10:14.760 Right? 0:10:14.760,0:10:18.792 And so, there is no pastor, 0:10:18.792,0:10:20.764 truly God-called and truly God-saved, 0:10:20.764,0:10:22.894 that's going to get [br]to the end of his life, 0:10:22.894,0:10:24.368 and he's going to come there 0:10:24.368,0:10:26.317 and the fire's going to hit him 0:10:26.317,0:10:28.465 and nothing in his life is going to be 0:10:28.465,0:10:30.565 according to the will of the Father. 0:10:30.565,0:10:33.125 That's an impossibility, right? 0:10:33.125,0:10:35.138 Clearly impossible. 0:10:35.138,0:10:36.412 John 15:16 0:10:36.412,0:10:38.409 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you. 0:10:38.409,0:10:41.772 And appointed you that [br]you should go and bear fruit, 0:10:41.772,0:10:45.406 and that your fruit should abide." 0:10:45.406,0:10:46.185 You know what? 0:10:46.185,0:10:47.827 Jesus chooses people. 0:10:47.827,0:10:51.549 He's got a certain people for [br]His own personal possession 0:10:51.549,0:10:54.159 to be zealous of good works. 0:10:54.159,0:10:57.479 We are His workmanship. 0:10:57.479,0:11:00.963 How many of you know Ephesians 2:10? 0:11:00.963,0:11:03.815 Who can quote it? 0:11:03.815,0:11:05.420 "...God prepared beforehand 0:11:05.420,0:11:06.984 that we should walk in them." 0:11:06.984,0:11:08.521 Is that not what it says? 0:11:08.521,0:11:09.976 Does the Scripture not say 0:11:09.976,0:11:13.566 that God has specific [br]works, specific fruit 0:11:13.566,0:11:15.730 for the life of every one of His children, 0:11:15.730,0:11:17.630 and He's prepared them beforehand that 0:11:17.630,0:11:18.784 you would walk in them. 0:11:18.784,0:11:20.874 Does He not say that? 0:11:20.874,0:11:23.727 And so there's nobody [br]that's going to get there 0:11:23.727,0:11:25.241 that's going to be truly saved 0:11:25.241,0:11:26.932 that did not have works 0:11:26.932,0:11:28.253 that were appointed to them 0:11:28.253,0:11:30.061 that God's going to [br]make absolutely certain 0:11:30.061,0:11:31.121 that they carry out. 0:11:31.121,0:11:31.832 Listen to this. 0:11:31.832,0:11:32.759 John 15:18 0:11:32.759,0:11:34.361 "By this My Father is glorified, 0:11:34.361,0:11:36.238 that you bear much fruit, 0:11:36.238,0:11:39.371 and so prove to be My disciples." 0:11:39.371,0:11:41.076 So, if you don't bear much fruit, 0:11:41.076,0:11:42.856 then what? 0:11:42.856,0:11:45.649 You don't prove to be His disciple. 0:11:45.649,0:11:47.446 How do you prove to be His disciple? 0:11:47.446,0:11:48.503 By bearing much fruit. 0:11:48.503,0:11:49.748 I guarantee you this, 0:11:49.748,0:11:51.304 there's going to be nobody there 0:11:51.304,0:11:53.547 that didn't bear fruit. 0:11:53.547,0:11:55.361 Do you believe that? 0:11:55.361,0:11:57.539 So basically, what happens with 0:11:57.539,0:12:00.104 1 Corinthians 3 passage 0:12:00.104,0:12:02.626 is that people take it out of context. 0:12:02.626,0:12:04.397 Saved so as by fire. 0:12:04.397,0:12:05.857 And they immediately see 0:12:05.857,0:12:09.174 this pathetic Christian come there 0:12:09.174,0:12:12.775 and gets hit by this fire. 0:12:12.775,0:12:17.308 And he's totally incinerated. 0:12:17.308,0:12:19.313 It's all gone. 0:12:19.313,0:12:21.393 But that just simply conflicts 0:12:21.393,0:12:23.061 with so many other texts 0:12:23.061,0:12:24.356 in the Scriptures. 0:12:24.356,0:12:26.140 So many others. 0:12:26.140,0:12:28.833 And so 1 Corinthians 3 read in context 0:12:28.833,0:12:30.460 is definitely dealing with men 0:12:30.460,0:12:32.357 who are building the church. 0:12:32.357,0:12:37.285 And I think it needs to [br]be taken in that context.