Here's the first question.
"I have a question about giving.
I will use myself as an example,
but the question can be taken more generally.
What is a good attitude to have
when it comes to giving?
When it comes to church, charity,
supporting ministry efforts,
or missions, etc.,
but you also have debt?
We are about $400 behind on the rent.
And it will take months of small,
affordable payments here and there
to pay it off while staying afloat.
I recently became a Christian..."
You see these different factors here.
You see the kind of debt -
that's something that we might want
to give consideration to.
The kind of debt.
He's a brand new Christian.
A brand new Christian is probably
going to look different
than someone who is
more of a seasoned Christian,
or walked with the Lord longer anyway.
Because you recognize as I recognize,
when I first got saved,
I had a mess of debt.
The financial situation of lots of lost people
is just a wreck.
And then you get saved,
and oh, now you have to start
putting pieces in place.
So, "...I recently became a Christian
and acknowledged truths
like not storing up treasure on earth,
not being anxious for tomorrow,
not idolizing your money
or trusting in riches,
trusting in God as a provider, etc.
And I do not think giving is optional.
Well, as a Christian, it is something
you want to practice.
You want to be able to give.
And I think there's a text
which says God provides or increases
in order that we may be able to give more.
So with these in mind,
what is a good attitude to have
considering your debts when giving.
Should you give a small amount?
Or does that show a lack of faith in God
to provide from His own hand?
Does that show more of a self-trust?
Or should you give as you would like to give,
as if you did have the means,
trusting in Him for your financial situation.
Or is that a lack of wisdom
and lack of stewardship
for your wife and kids?
I've heard you say that as a church
you have tried to intend to give more
than your abilities as a matter of faith.
Is this is wise or biblical concerning
your home and family as well?
Can you shed some light on the issue?
Thanks."
So, what principles do you think?
That guy came to you
and asked you about your thoughts on this.
What are your thoughts?
I mean, the Scriptures speak a ton about money.
And so, what do you say?
And this is real.
I have had people come to me repeatedly
who say, I'm in debt,
I want to give,
where do I draw the line?
How do I balance that?
What do I do?
What's the best approach?
Should I, one, continue to give
generously?
And trust the Lord?
Or, should I basically put my giving,
either totally on hold
or reduce it significantly
and attack this debt over here?
What is the most God honoring way?
That's really the issue here.
What is the most God honoring way?
What do you think?
Any thoughts?
(from the room)
Would it be to pay off the debt first,
and then to be freed from that debt,
so you wouldn't be
like a slave to the lender?
Tim: OK, now there's a verse coming up
right there.
A slave to the lender.
The borrower is servant or a slave
to the lender.
OK.
Now that's a reality.
You know, one of the things
that could come up in a conversation like this
is whether debt is even permissible
to the Christian.
But, if you get saved and you already have debt,
and you don't have the ability
to pay it off immediately,
you're obviously in a situation
that you have to deal with.
Whatever your convictions are
concerning whether a Christian ought
to get further in debt,
or whether it's permissible for a Christian
to take out wise debt?
Or a business loan?
Or what exactly is forbidden in Scripture?
What is permitted in Scripture?
Some people would go to Romans
and basically say,
well, owe no man anything,
except love.
And so, if I'm not to owe any man anything
then I'm not supposed to borrow money.
Which Mueller basically took that approach
and interpreted that passage that way.
And I believe Hudson Taylor,
kind of following Mueller's lead,
was minded that way as well.
I honestly - although those two men
have been really significant in my own life
as far as debt
and as far as trusting God,
I don't believe that they're exactly
dealing with that text in Romans 13
exactly right.
But, I think that you could
make a case for the fact -
I would say from a stewardship standpoint,
if I'm faced with a situation
where I can take out a mortgage
for a house,
and be actually paying for the house,
and it would cost me just the same to rent,
but fifteen years down the road,
the house is paid for,
if I'm on a fifteen year mortgage.
And if I'm renting, I have to go on renting.
To me, the stewardship there,
the wisdom is over here.
And the thing is,
it's not an unwise type of unsecured debt
like a student loan.
Student loans are horrible debt.
Horrible debt.
Because you've got no asset.
And so what happens if you
drop out of school
and you don't end up getting
a high paying job?
You're wracked with all this debt.
You've got nothing to show for it.
It's unsecured.
And it's just a mess.
I would never, never advise
people to take out that.
But as far as a mortgage,
you do have an asset.
You have the home.
If the bank has to foreclose,
they're able to repossess your home.
They at least have that asset
that you borrowed the money on.
And so even if you can't pay them back,
they get the house back.
You know my take -
I think loans on cars are
absolutely bad, bad stewardship.
But, anyway, that's my take.
(from the room)
So what about all the people here
who have student loans?
Tim: Well, here's the thing.
I had student loans.
I didn't need them for school.
I took them out to buy cars and motorcycles.
But see, the thing was, I was lost.
And I think what we're doing is
we're dealing with a man here
much like many of us.
We wake up one day,
our eyes are opened,
God has saved us,
and now we look at our situation
and we recognize... Oh.
Scripture definitely has something to say
about debt.
The borrower is servant to the lender.
That doesn't necessarily mean
it's absolutely forbidden,
but that's a reality.
And that is a reality
that as long as you're in debt,
you don't have the freedom.
Why? Because you're a slave.
You don't have the freedom
that you would otherwise have.
Oh, there's nothing like being out of debt.
Everything is paid for.
Because there's a freedom in that.
But, OK, let's say it's desirable.
But does that undo the fact
that we have consistent commandments
in Scripture to give?
Anybody throw some verses out?
Or be able to quote some passages
that have to do with giving?
One of my favorites as a young believer
was the one found in Luke 6.
Give, and it shall be given to you,
pressed down,
shaken together,
and overflowing.
Now if you think about
putting something -
you know, you put gravel
or wheat or corn or whatever -
it's the idea that you put it in a basket
and you shake it.
When you shake it, it settles.
And it's not just shaken
so that there's no air
or the least amount of air in there.
But it's actually pressed down.
It's the idea you shake it together,
you press it down,
and then you just keep filling it
until it's overflowing.
That is a promise.
So here's the thing,
if I've got a promise in Scripture
that if I give, it's going to be given to me
in abundance -
"Shall men give into your lap."
What's that mean?
Well, it means that God is
going to give you favor with people.
Now, even though I am not one
to advocate Old Testament tithing,
because I don't think the New Testament
does that.
But I am one to advocate the principle
behind the tithing.
Remember what God said to Israel?
He said, "test Me."
Here's the thing, if I'm in debt -
because I was here.
I was here.
When I first got saved,
I had that tension between,
OK, I'm in debt,
and I want to give.
And then I got out of debt.
But then I got back into debt
with this house.
And I wanted it paid off.
We paid it off in six years.
But let me tell you,
during that six years,
Ruby and I did not reduce our giving.
And the thing was,
I remember a time when we literally
could go around our house
and say that sofa - so-and-so gave it to us.
That end table - so-and-so gave it to us.
That thing over there -
somebody gave us that.
That lamp over there.
These lamps right here.
These plants right here.
There was a time we could
basically go around all of our stuff -
those bookshelves over there, that dining room table,
those chairs there...
people gave all those things to us.
Or God brought them to us some way.
We had this GE refrigerator -
Sid was just talking about the fact
that Ruby and I were the first ones
to buy a mobile home from them.
Before we lived in this house,
we bought a mobile home
from Alamo Homes.
And I remember,
I got a free refrigerator thrown in -
GE refrigerator -
That thing lasted.
We brought it here.
It lasted a long time.
It just kept going and going
and going and going and going.
The thing I'm pointing at is this,
that I don't think it's either/or.
And with all the promises that are
attached to giving,
don't let the charismatics
and the health/wealth prosperity people
dull these promises
in your own mind.
God is faithful.
And you know,
there's the one that scatters
and he all the more increases.
And there's the one that holds back
what he shouldn't hold back,
and it only tends to poverty.
I love that proverb too.
Because I lived on those things.
I lived on the promises of Isaiah 58.
You're helping people
and you're giving to people.
And I think the thing that you want to do
if you're in the place like this guy,
is you want to do both.
It's not an either/or.
You want to test God -
you don't want to be foolish.
You want to do what you do prayerfully.
You don't want to just run out and do something
because Mueller did it.
But you know what you want to do,
you want to study the promises of God
and you want to act in faith.
Prayerfully act in faith.
And I'm not going to say that there's one
specific way to do it.
I remember, and I've told this story before,
but it's always stuck with me.
My pastor out at Community Baptist Church,
Pat Horner,
drove over to Houston to a conference.
He got into Houston,
his car was on E (empty),
going to this conference.
He's got $20 in his pocket.
And that's his gas money to get home.
And went he sat in this meeting,
at the end of the meeting,
they have a missionary go up
and the pastor says this brother so-and-so
is trying to get to whatever country it was,
and they brought out one of those 5 gallon
paint buckets and they set it down there
and said can we help send this guy?
Pat just felt led.
He took the $20 out
and he threw it in there.
How was he going to get home?
You see, he did that by faith.
He did that by faith - it wasn't foolish.
He felt led of the Lord to do it.
He recognized that he wasn't
going to be able to get back.
And he said he threw the money in there,
the service is over,
and he said he was going down the aisle
of the church building
headed out the back door.
He said a man that he had never met in his life
came up to him,
and put his hand on his
and pressed $20 into it.
And he told him,
I have no idea why I'm giving this to you.
The Lord just impressed it upon me.
And you know, when the Lord does
that kind of thing to you,
that's amazing.
You want that to happen more.
Charles Leiter tells me
about Keith McCloud.
This brother would get himself into places
where he wouldn't have gas.
And he would drive all the way home
on E (empty).
We're talking hundreds of miles on E.
And he just prayed the whole time.
So, what's that?
And Hudson Taylor,
you probably know the story
or you've heard somebody say it before,
but he had a thousand missionaries
in the China Inland Mission.
But more than that,
and he didn't have money to pay them.
Many of them had wives,
they had children.
He didn't have any money.
And one of the other missionaries
saw him in his office just whistling.
He loved that song that John Sytsma loves.
Jesus, I am resting, resting...
And he was whistling that song,
and one of the missionaries
was watching him and thought,
are you for real?
You've got all these missionaries at your care
and no money's coming in.
He said I've got a quarter in my pocket
and all the promises of God.
You see, that's the thing.
If you've got promises that
if you scatter, you increase.
If you hold back, it tends to poverty.
Well, I can tell you which one is smart.
(incomplete thought)
It's kind of like the farmer.
You know, if the farmer
throws a lot out there,
prospect for a good harvest.
If he's really stingy in what he throws,
he just throws a couple seeds,
he just gets a couple stalks of wheat.
All because he needs to hoard it.
Gotta keep it.
But see, that's the very principle of Scripture
that we should scatter.
Now, there's different kinds of debt.
You know, it's one thing
when I'm living in this house
and I had a 20 year mortgage
and I wanted to pay it off fast.
That's different than
he's $400 behind right now.
So, that's kind of a different situation.
He's in a position where
he owes somebody money
and it's past due.
It's one thing to have debt
where you owe people,
but you're making your payments on time.
It's another thing when you're behind.
And I would make that a real priority.
But see, I don't think that
the only things in the equation
are whether you give to the Lord
or whether you pay your debt.
The reason I'm saying that
is because there's more money in our lives
than just what we pay debt with
and what we give with.
He's got other bills.
He's got mouths to feed.
He talked about having children.
There's other things happening.
There's gasoline that's being used.
So what I would say to somebody
is all the other money,
there needs to be some real discipline.
There needs to be some real sacrifice.
You know, you can get this tension
where you're feeling like,
oh, well I've got debt over here,
but I also want to be able to give.
But I think you need to give consideration
to all the other money
that's being used in your life.
Like, if you're in that kind of situation,
you would not be going out to eat.
You would not be going to a movie.
You would not be taking a vacation.
You would not be using gas
for things that are unnecessary.
You basically have to make sacrifices.
(Incomplete thought)
Brethren, we had a family
in the church years ago
who came to our deacons
because he couldn't make
his mortgage payment.
And a week before that,
he took his wife to Dallas
for their anniversary.
See, and I don't know what the situation is here,
but I'll tell you this,
if you're $400 behind,
I would give in very reserved fashion.
I would not give liberally
because I don't think it's right
for you to go taking a bunch of money
and putting it in the church box
when you've got somebody out there
that you owe money to.
If I was in his place,
I would give
and I would eat rice and beans.
If you've got to turn the A/C off
or put it at 82.
We're not buying clothes.
We're not buying new shoes
for the children when school starts.
None of that.
You're not doing that.
You've got to make sacrifices.
But the other thing is income.
You know, a man can work
more than one job.
My brother-in-law, I remember,
when we were starting a family,
my brother-in-law Rick had a family.
He had three jobs.
I remember it was rare that we would see him home,
because he'd get up in the morning,
he'd go to one job,
he'd get off,
he'd go to another job,
he'd be coming in like at midnight
from the 3rd job.
Look, if you've got to work three jobs...
Work is the way out of debt.
Work is the way out of difficulties like this.
Work and sacrifice.
You can't live like the Joneses.
Any other thoughts?
(from the room)
Do you think it would be wrong
as far as how you would define giving -
we could always think of giving
as a monetary value.
Would it be right for this guy,
like I might not be able to give
so much monetarily,
but Lord, I want to be able to give
in different ways, just to serve?
Tim: Yeah, it might be that.
It might be, you know what?
I can't really give money right now,
but I can go paint the church building.
I can go mow the lawn.
Yeah, it could be that kind of thing.
There's lots of ways to give to people.
And you know, in some societies
where the giving might be -
you hear about preachers that get a chicken.
There are other things of value
that we may have.
It doesn't come down to just
whether I'm able to put some bills in the box.
Brethren, I think one thing that
just needs to grip us.
You know, if you look back
at the kings of Judah.
One of them went by the name of Amaziah.
Amaziah - he was the one
who took like a hundred talents of gold,
and I believe he was going to battle
against Ben Hadad of Assyria.
And he paid a hundred talents of gold
to another king to basically send mercenaries
to join his own forces.
And the prophet came to him and said,
What are you doing?
We have the Lord on our side.
You don't need that.
And the king had already given the money.
What do I do about
the hundred talents of gold?
What do I do about that?
And the prophet said,
what's that?
The Lord's able to give you much more
if He wants to.
There's a place in Haggai
where it says
the silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,
saith the Lord.
See, that's the thing that
we really have to recognize.
I could tell you stories
about my own family
and our finances
and the church and its finances.
And the stories that I've read
about men that really impacted me
in this area.
Just the accounts, the testimony
of God's faithfulness.
It's all the Lord's.
You have as much as you have
because the Lord has determined
for you to have exactly that much.
He could make you more wealthy
than Bill Gates,
if that was His intention.
He can do that.
He has not forgotten His people.
If you're in a situation
where you give
and you're seeking to test Him -
not presumptuously,
but faithfully - you're testing Him,
because He says, "test Me,"
because He's given these promises.
And you say, Lord,
I'm going to trust these promises.
You say that if I give,
men will give to me
into my lap.
They will give pressed down, shaken together,
and overflowing.
I'm going to test You, Lord.
Because I want to see Your faithfulness.
I want to see You do this.
There's a joy in giving.
It's more blessed to give than to receive.
And God will cause that to be the reality.
But then, if you've given
and then you're in a place of need.
What better way to come before the Lord
and say Lord, I've given, and...
Repeatedly, I can come and say,
Lord, I need money for whatever.
Grace needs a vehicle.
Or Joshua is going to go to college.
Lord, if I'd taken the money that I've given
and I basically - it would have
put Joshua through school
and we'd have a vehicle,
but I didn't.
I gave it, but now I'm in need.
That's the perfect place to be.
Because the Lord says
that if you're pouring yourself out
for the hungry - spiritually hungry -
you're giving.
People put money in that box.
We're supporting missionaries. We're supporting the spread of the Gospel.
We're supporting I'll Be Honest.
We're supporting Bibles that go out.
We're supporting all manner of
different kinds of evangelistic outreaches
and tracts,
and supporting men who preach the Gospel.
That's the greater hunger.
And the promises there in Isaiah 58
is when the merciful man cries out
in need, God says, I'm going to say to that man,
"Here I am."
See, that's what happens.
Lord, I have tried to be mindful
when other people have been in need.
And now I'm in need.
See, there's a promise in Scripture
that says God's going to say, "Here I am."
It's like when you can say,
Lord, I've got these needs now
and You said - Lord, I've got it right here.
You said that You would take care of me
when I get into exactly this kind of situation.
And what I have found out is He will.
Every single time.
And I've been able to say that
about our church.
Every single time.
Every single need that our church
has ever had.
If there's been a financial need,
the Lord has provided for it,
every single time.
There's no exceptions.
He's been faithful every single time.
Any other thoughts on that one?
(from the room)
Just another quick testimony.
Robert Chapman -
they were ready to leave
a conference at the train station,
but they had no money.
Chapman had been given some money
at the conference,
but then almost immediately
given it to someone who he felt
needed it more.
On the way to the railway station,
Fisher reminded Chapman
that they had no money.
Mr. Chapman replied,
"To whom does the money belong
and the cattle upon a thousand hills?"
When they reached the station,
a man on an arriving train
recognized Chapman.
He hurried over,
handed him a five pound note
and said, "I've had this in my pocket
for some time and I'm glad I met you."
He then got back on his train which departed.
After a moment, Chapman asked his companion,
"To whom does the money belong?"
Tim: And Hudson Taylor had
a very similar situation.
He was traveling the U.S.
He was at a train station in St. Louis.
Again, just like he was there whistling
when he's got a thousand missionaries
and nothing to pay those guys.
Here he is standing in the line
to get a ticket for the train,
and he's got no money.
And the guy ahead of him is getting agitated.
He's feeling this conviction.
You need to buy Hudson Taylor's
train ticket.
And so they get all the way up there,
and the guy can't bear it any longer.
So he turns around,
and either he gave him the money
or he said I'm going to buy your ticket.
And then Taylor tells him
I didn't have any money.
And the guy was actually frustrated with him.
What? You just stood there in this line?
And you didn't say anything?
That just proved the point.
I don't have to say anything.
Because God knows.
Christina - have we not heard
the report that came there from China?
She didn't have the money for rent
and a lost - listen -
the Chinese - I'm not saying Americans are much better,
but different countries kind of
have their different sins.
But if there's something that the Chinese are,
they are cold; they are heartless.
They are not a merciful people.
And here is this lost neighbor
who comes and gives Christina
a large sum of money,
and the exact amount that was needed
to pay the rent that she couldn't pay.
That's the kind of thing that happens.
I remember reading the story
about a widow,
and she didn't have any food,
and she lived in an apartment complex,
and some really wicked man
came and left - he felt prompted -
and he left a bag of groceries there.
He could hear the woman,
either through the wall
or through the window
praising the Lord.
And he couldn't bear that
and he had to tell her
that God didn't bring you those groceries.
I brought you those groceries.
And she said, "Oh no,
the Lord brought those to me
even if he has to use the devil to do it."
(incomplete thought)
But you don't need to know
the means by which it will come.
You can exhaust your own thinking
and your own resources,
and you can rule out -
well, it's not going to happen this way;
it's not going to happen that way.
I've told this story before,
but I got to a certain place
where we had gotten into some degree
of debt over a vehicle that we bought.
And I did in the past
what I would not recommend anybody do now
with regards to a vehicle.
There was a reason I did it,
because I had like $3,500 on a GM card
and it was probably the
worst automobile mistake I made in my life.
But I got into some debt over that van,
and then Ruby had started
her cheesecake business.
And I just asked the Lord,
Lord, would You please allow us
to be out of debt by the end of the year?
And suddenly, anonymous checks
for $1500, $2000 started showing up
in the mail.
And we were going to my mom's at Christmas
and I got almost all the debt paid off,
except for about $1500.
We're going to be heading out of town,
so I won't be able to check the mail anymore.
And I thought,
Ruby, I just want to check the church mail.
All the checks up to that time
had come to my home.
I thought, let's just check the church mail
because we're going to be out of town
for two weeks - to make sure
there's not a backlog in the P.O. box.
And there was a letter for me.
And it perfectly paid off
and got me out of debt.
And then I started thinking,
you know if those checks keep coming,
now that I'm out of debt,
they never kept coming.
It was all over.
Nobody else knew.
Nobody human knew
that I had asked the Lord -
and every time one of those would come in,
I remember putting them out
on the dining room table
and calling all the children around.
Children, look.
Daddy prayed and look what the Lord did.
OK.
Any other thoughts?