He says - now follow this.
You have to be discerning.
And I know I've read this thing 3 or 4 times,
so sometimes you don't catch everything
in the first time you read it.
"I want to live for Christ
with all that is in me..."
Okay. You get that far...
Again, love assumes the best.
And you take him at his word.
"I attended a youth group
which I no longer attend.
And the youth pastor sent me a long message."
So this is the youth pastor
to one of the young men that was attending.
"In it, he said I was a Pharisee.
He called me stubborn.
He called me judgmental, rude,
cruel, toxic, and prideful."
I mean, to even get one of those words
is not good,
but when a pastor gives you all those words...
"He said this was feedback
he received from others."
And then the guy admits,
"those who aren't Christians have told me things like this."
So this isn't the first guy that's told him this.
And then he admits this too:
"I'm sure there are just as many Christians who think this..."
about him.
And then he says this,
"Obviously, there is a disconnect here.
I've watched you guys at I'll Be Honest.
I read the Puritans.
I read ten chapters a day of Scripture."
And then he says this:
"I don't see how someone
could be saturated with so much truth
and yet be accused of things like this."
If you're discerning, I hope you recognize
there's something really wrong with that.
"I love God.
I love His Word.
And my life has drastically changed
since my conversion."
And then he admits this:
"Prayer is a weak area in my life.
So maybe my problem is there.
If not, where else could it be?
I bear marks of truly being saved,
and those who are calling me all these things
don't deny that I'm saved.
But, could it be that I'm still lost?
I don't want to be bringing
so much dishonor to God with these things,
so please help."
Mario, what do you tell him?
(from the room)
That's tough.
Because, those people could be
testifying to right things in his life,
but they could also be resisting truth.
Tim: Let me just ask this question.
Is it likely that multiple people telling you -
because he admits that other people
have told him similar things.
When you have multiple people telling you
that you are Pharisaical, stubborn,
judgmental, rude, cruel, toxic, and prideful,
is it likely that there's not a shred of truth to it?
(from the room)
Sounds like a cage-stager.
Tim: Sounds like what?
(from the room) He's in a cage stage a little bit.
Tim: Cage stage?
(from the room) In Calvinism, when you first learn
about Calvinism or truths, it's very easy
to be obnoxious about it
and basically beat everybody around you.
Tim: Now, he doesn't bring that out specifically.
(from the room) the fact he said those
who aren't Christians have told me these things -
to me, that holds even more weight than the Christians.
That unbelievers are telling him these same things -
that he's judgmental, stubborn, toxic...
Tim: But let's pick up on this.
How many of you were, in the beginning
when you came to kind of embrace
the doctrines of grace - if you have -
maybe some of you haven't;
but how many of you were
somewhat obnoxious with it?
Okay, so we've got hands, but let me ask you.
Even... and so was I.
Even in that state
as obnoxious as you were,
did people say this about you?
Did they call you Pharisaical, stubborn,
judgmental, rude, cruel, toxic, and prideful?
(from the room) Not all at the same time.
Tim: Well, see, I actually don't remember
anybody using those words to describe me.
(from the room) I just got told that I'm preaching
another Gospel.
Tim: Well, right. That was more the thing.
Well, it can't be true.
Somebody told me,
"I hope you'll be happy in heaven by yourself."
Because it seemed so narrow.
(from the room) You told me I was judgmental.
But that was after about a year and a half of being a Christian.
So we don't know much about this pastor.
He might be solid on the same page doctrinally.
Tim: Oh, he could be.
(incomplete thought)
(from the room) Did you mention the kids age?
Or did you skip that? Tim: I skipped it.
(from the room) To me, that's interesting too.
Tim: He's 14.
That softened people.
I purposely left it out for that reason.
But at 14, you're that proud, obnoxious,
toxic? I mean that word!
That's a bad word.
What's that?
(from the room) Would it be easier for him
to fall into that because he's so young?
Tim: Perhaps.
(from the room) If he was 24, he'd have ten more years
of maturing as a person.
Tim: But here's one of the things he says.
"I watch you guys on I'll Be Honest.
I read the Puritans and I read
ten chapters a day of Scripture."
Now that's kind of Pharisaical right there.
It's like throwing out there:
"I read ten chapters a day."
And then to say, "I don't see how
someone could be saturated with so much truth
and yet be accused of things like this."
Well, see, that's lacking discernment.
That's very ignorant.
(from the room) He's just immature.
But I think he's trying to protect himself.
He's 14 in this world.
I don't know what kind of school he goes to,
but I think if he goes to public school,
I can see myself trying to wrap myself in the Word
and just standing on it.
So he's immature, but at the same time,
I think he's trying to stand for what is right.
That's a lot of negative words in one sentence.
Tim: He's 14. He's a baby.
So we don't excuse it,
but maybe we are a little softer.
He needs guidance. Okay.
What guidance are we going to give him?
Because he's probably watching.
Or he probably will watch if James puts this up.
(unintelligible)
Tim: Well, surrounding himself
with those who are very gracious
would be a good influence;
it would be a good starting point.
And you know, there's a possibility
that he doesn't have saved parents.
He was converted maybe not through family means.
(Incomplete thought)
He doesn't talk about his parental situation.
But is there anything in Scripture
that would lead us to believe
that we become like those we hang around?
Can anybody quote some place?
(unintelligible)
Well, that's the negative,
but how about the positive?
(unintelligible)
He who walks with the wise is wise.
(unintelligible)
Yeah, it's definitely a biblical reality.
And there's the reality of imitation.
We're to imitate the faith of people.
And we're very much called
to imitate those who imitate Christ.
We're very much called to find people -
you know, it's kind of the leaven principle.
Leaven leavens the lump.
But it's amazing when you have godly people -
you know how often people
came away from just sitting for a little bit
and talking to Martyn Lloyd-Jones?
They said you just felt a greater nearness to God.
I remember Charles and Mona said
that they were in Wales,
and a friend of Lloyd-Jones -
and I can't recall his name right off,
was it McMillan?
They spent a little time with him
and they said it was like
the fragrance of Christ stayed with them for awhile.
There's impact in being around people.
I noticed at the Denton conference -
you know, I'd look around
and I'd look to see where Jared was.
It wasn't really that I was looking to see where he was;
it was just I would notice,
hey, there's Charles. There's Jared.
Hey, there's Geoffrey Thomas. There's Jared.
The guy's walking around with all the preachers.
Well, you know there's something to that.
And if we surround ourselves
with the godliest people that we can,
it's really going to have an impact on our life.
That would be one thing to tell him.
Being in a church where you have
those kind of elders;
men whose faith is worth imitating.
What else would you tell him?
(from the room) I would say something that I learned
earlier in my walk.
He mentioned the fact that he reads a lot of Puritans.
(unintelligible)
Maybe sometimes you need to lay off those books
and go to Scripture and see how
you're supposed to be a Christian.
That helped me because I got into
reading all this, and Mack told me one day,
hey, brother, how about you just lay off those books
and just focus on the Bible itself
and that greatly helped me.
Tim: And he says, "I don't see how
someone could be saturated with so much truth
and yet be accused of things like this."
I would say to him
you can be saturated with a lot of truth,
but if you're not living the truth;
if you actually are being mean and cruel
and toxic and rude and Pharisaical,
that's why you're being accused of it.
How much intake of Puritans
or how much intake of Scripture
isn't the issue.
Because there is a knowledge,
there's a gaining of intellect that simply puffs up.
It produces pride.
One of the things that can happen
is we gain information, and we become judgmental.
We judge other people.
Or we look down on other people
because they don't know what we know.
But, what we want to aim for
is to be transformed by this truth.
And then he does admit this too.
He admits that his prayer life isn't very good.
See, that's another indication of pride,
because desperate people,
needy people pray.
Proud people don't need the Lord.
They don't need to pray.
When people know:
"Lord, I can't do this without You,"
you find them out in the field praying
or in their closet praying.
People who can bypass prayer,
that is a real evidence of weakness,
immaturity, pride, self-sufficiency, independence.
Anybody say anything else?
(from the room)
I mean, that balance is difficult.
That balance that James and yourself
were talking about last Sunday.
That's a difficult thing.
And we need a lot of help from the Holy Spirit
to find balance. It's tough.
Tim: One of the things
that we need to remember too -
he's not actually saying that this has to do
with embracing the sovereignty of God
or the doctrines of grace.
But I will say this,
it's very interesting to me,
when I was studying -
I did a number of messages,
six messages here at GCC
on hyper-Calvinism several years back,
and what was very interesting to me
is that Calvin in his "Institutes" -
he started by having election first
and then the doctrine of justification.
Now think about it -
that's the order in which they happen.
In eternity past, God chooses.
In the course of time, we believe
and are justified by faith in Jesus Christ.
So he put them in ordo salutis fashion.
But you know what he recognized?
He recognized the doctrine of election
is a stumbling block for the lost.
And he changed the chapters.
He put justification by faith before election.
There's a lot of wisdom to that.
A lot of people come across the doctrines of grace
and you know what they want to do?
They want to lost grandma
and start talking Romans 9.
That's not what you want to do.
You want to go to the text you went to.
"Whoever thirsts..."
You want to preach the Gospel to them.
Banging people over the head with election doesn't save them.
People need to trust Christ.
You need to show them Christ.
You need to show them the beauties of Christ.
You need to put Him up as the only hope of mankind.
Because really, when it comes to the responsibility of men,
their responsibility is: God commands all men everywhere to repent.
That's their responsibility.
Because what happens is
I thank the Lord,
I was not bogged down by election
and predestination.
I came across "The Gospel According to Jesus,"
and I was hit full blast with the Gospel
out of Matthew's Gospel primarily.
I didn't know those things
and so they weren't a stumbling block;
they weren't a snare to me.
But I've seen people get so ensnared by that.
But it's a non-issue.
You say why? If I'm not chosen, I can't be saved!
Technically speaking, yes, that's true.
But, the reality of Scripture
is that if you come to Christ,
He's not going to cast you out.
If you thirst, drink.
That's what Scripture says.
Whosoever... if you're thirsty, drink.
So you don't want to hit people
with this thought -
and you know what Jared was just saying?
This last Sunday he preached out of John 7
and when he was all done,
a woman came up and said, "I didn't like that message,
because you didn't emphasize the fact that God chooses us."
See, that is the hyper- Calvinism right there.
Because you know what happens?
You tell the sinner,
"Well, you can only be saved if you're elect."
And so you know what they do?
Now they're going to sit there
and they're going to wait to see if they're elect.
And they're going to think it's useless
to do anything else
until I can figure out if I'm elect.
But they're never going to figure out if they're elect.
When the reality is, Jesus didn't come along
and say you've got to figure out if you're elect.
He came along and He said, "repent and believe the Gospel."
And we appeal to man's responsibility,
not to God's sovereignty,
not when we're preaching the Gospel.
And it's a snare.
I think Calvin was absolutely right in doing what he did.
So we need to be careful.
We come to these doctrines;
we come to the doctrine of the sovereignty of God.
But what that ought to do
is not be this club to beat people over the head;
it ought to fuel your confidence
that when you take the Gospel and preach it,
it's going to be the power of God unto salvation.
People are going to get saved.
Because God's going to see to it that people get saved.
But they're going to get saved
as you lift up Christ.
Remember what Christ said.
It's just like out there in the wilderness,
you've got all these fiery serpents and they're biting people
and what happened?
Moses, make a brazen serpent.
And he lifted it up on a pole,
and as many as looked -
and He said in the same way,
the Son of Man is going to be lifted up,
and whoever looks on Him and believes,
they're going to be saved.
That's what we want to show people.
Christ is your only hope.
Scripture does not say election is your only hope.
Christ is your only hope.
(incomplete thought)
Yes, in a way, I know you could argue,
well, election does bring hope.
And it does.
It brings certainty to the reality
that our Gospel is going to produce fruit.
(from the room)
Brother, I heard Lloyd-Jones in his book,
"What is an Evangelical?"
And he boldly stated, "yes, I'm a Calvinist,
but I wouldn't put predestination
and election under the essentials."
He said it's not essential.
It's the resurrection, being born again,
that's what essential.
Tim: Any other word for young Zechariah?
Okay.
You'd warn him against pride.
(from the room)
Maybe take him the Scripture about being humble.
Isaiah 66.
"This is the one to whom I will look,
he who is humble and contrite in spirit
and trembles at My Word."
Tim: The problem with pride is that it's blind.
The problem with pride is that it exalts self.
And when you're exalting yourself,
you're right in your own eyes.
And so, that's the difficulty.
(from the room)
I'd probably ask him if he's gone
to his youth pastor
and asked him why he said those things.
(unintelligible)
Tim: Well, I have a feeling
there is definitely weight behind it.
There's truth behind it.
And I guess that's one of the things I'd say to him
is take these things as being true,
and humble yourself.
Repent of these things.
Humble yourself before the Lord.