So this is Daniel's question:
"Do the Scriptures teach that
two separate judgments will occur
between the Gospel age
and the age to come?
Before coming to any conclusion on my eschatology,
I am not a dispensationalist,
I am an amillenialist (with a smiley face).
The reason why I am prompted
to ask this question is because
according to Hebrews 9:27..."
So let's all turn to Hebrews 9:27.
"Do Scriptures teach that
two separate judgments will occur
between the Gospel age and the age to come?"
And he's asking that question
because he feels like,
according to Hebrews 9:27,
and if you have your Bibles open
to Hebrews 9:27,
you see that it says,
"And just as it is appointed
for man to die once,
and after that comes judgment."
And Daniel says,
"Just as it is appointed for man to die once
and after that comes the judgment,
in the text after the words 'die once,'
it says, 'and after.'
It sounds like the Apostle Paul
is stating..."
(I take issue with you on Apostle Paul)...
Anyway, the author of Hebrews.
Daniel is saying that it sounds like
it's stating that after the death
of an individual,
saved or lost,
judgment will occur right after.
Yet, you go to Revelation 20:11-15.
So keep your finger here and go to Revelation 20.
Verse 11-15
"Then I saw a great white throne,
and Him who is seated on it,
from His presence, earth and sky fled away
and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, great and small,
standing before the throne,
and books were opened,
then another book was opened,
which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged by what was written
in the books.
According to what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead
who were in it.
Death and Hades gave up the dead
who were in them.
And they were judged, each one of them,
according to what they had done.
Then Death and Hades were thrown
into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
The lake of fire.
And if anyone's name was not found
written in the Book of Life,
he was thrown into the lake of fire."
So, Daniel says, "yet, you go to Revelation 20:11-15,
which this passage is notoriously known as
the Great White Throne Judgment."
I don't think you have to say notoriously.
Because obviously the text does say
there's a great white throne
and there's a judgment.
Why do you say notorious?
Daniel: Perhaps in other translations
it words that particular passage differently,
so just to give a general title on that passage
was the Great White Throne Judgment.
Because on my translation it doesn't say that.
Tim: On your translation it what?
Daniel: It says judgment at the throne of God.
Tim: Yeah, mine says the Great White Throne Judgement.
I mean, I have a heading.
I recognize it's not inspired, but...
I don't think we have to be so notorious,
because it is a judgment that happens
at the great white throne.
It speaks about another judgment
involving the dead.
The Book of Life, books being opened,
being judged for our works,
and Death and Hades being
thrown into the lake of fire.
This judgment will occur at the end of the age.
How do you properly interpret
both of these passages?
So, basically, his question is this.
It sounds like there's a judgment at the end,
but it sounds like there's a judgment immediately
after death as well.
Well, ok, let's go back to Hebrews 9:27.
Because Daniel was basically
going off of what Hebrews 9:27 sounds like it's saying
when taken all by itself.
But it's really important that that text
be taken in its context.
Because the author of Hebrews is not
primarily talking about death and judgment.
He's primarily talking about Christ
and His one sacrifice.
Let's just pick up at Hebrews 9:22.
"Indeed, under the law, almost everything
is purified with blood."
So under Moses, God designed it
so that blood was necessary for much
of the ceremonial purification
that took place.
"And without the shedding of blood,
there is no forgiveness of sins.
Thus, it was necessary for the copies
of the heavenly things..."
The copies.
The stuff that happened
under Moses were copies.
Christ is the reality.
"It was necessary for the copies
of the heavenly things to be purified
with these rights."
In other words, with blood rights.
"But the heavenly things..."
In other words, the things that
pertain to Christ and His one offering.
"The heavenly things themselves
with better sacrifices than these."
Why, because they were animals.
They were animal sacrifices.
It was animal blood.
The blood of bulls and goats
does not do anything for sin.
Verse 24
"For Christ has entered,
not into holy places made with hands,
not like the copies,
which are copies of the true things,
but into heaven itself,
now to appear in the presence of God
on our behalf.
Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly
as the high priest enters the holy places
every year with blood not his own.
For then, He would have had to suffer repeatedly."
So, he's arguing here.
Christ did not have to suffer repeatedly.
"It wasn't to offer Himself repeatedly."
Why did those have to be offered repeatedly?
Because they never accomplished anything.
There was never any removal of sin.
So, they had to keep coming back;
keep coming back.
And you remember, one of the arguments made
is that these guys stood daily in the temple.
When Jesus was done, He sat down.
There were no chairs in the temple.
"He would have had to suffer repeatedly
since the foundation of the world.
But, as it is, He has appeared once for all
at the end of the ages, to put away sin
by the sacrifice of Himself."
Now, notice this.
Everything has been about Christ
and His offering.
"And just as..."
Now, you need to notice that.
Just as...
"Just as it is appointed for man to die once
and after that comes judgment..."
Just like that happens.
Just as man dies, and then after that
is the judgment,
"so Christ having been offered once
to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time."
Do you see the parallel?
Man dies - then the judgment,
is parallel to
Christ dying in His offering,
and then returning the second time.
Well, I would ask this:
is Christ's second coming immediately
after He offered Himself?
Because that's the parallel.
Well, no.
It's a long time later.
And so because those are the two things
being compared there,
there would be no sense,
there would be no reason,
there would be nothing about the parallel
that would require us to say,
oh, the judgment must be immediately
after death.
Do you see what I'm saying?
So, taken in context,
and then we'll pick up verse 28,
"So, Christ having been offered
once to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time,
not to deal with sin,
but to save those who are
eagerly waiting for Him."
I would just give you a text
maybe we could look at very quickly
before we move on to the second question.
Jump over to 2 Peter.
2 Peter 2 has the classic text,
in my estimation,
on the intermediate state.
By intermediate state, I mean when people die,
what happens between death and the judgment.
And notice what's being said here.
2 Peter 2:4
"For if God did not spare angels
when they sinned, but cast them into hell..."
So you see what's happened.
The angels sinned.
Cast into hell.
Well, you say, wait,
some of those angels are fallen
and they're running around still.
Well, it seems like Scripture teaches
that some were cast away.
Some are not allowed...
I'm not here to talk about the angels so much.
But, cast them into hell,
and notice this - the intermediate state,
from the time they sinned
until the judgment.
"Committed them to chains of gloomy darkness,
to be kept until the judgment."
You see, they weren't judged immediately.
They're put in a holding tank, as it were.
Now you say, ok, that's talking about angels.
That's not talking about people.
Ok.
Peter talks about people when he gets
down to verse 9.
"The Lord knows how to rescue
the godly from trials."
And notice this.
"And to keep the unrighteous
under punishment until the day of judgment."
You see that?
Not only angels, but men too,
are kept under punishment.
There is a place of punishment.
There's a place of holding.
It doesn't say that they were
immediately judged.
It says that they're being kept until the judgment.
Does that make sense?
So, I think we see that
no, there isn't more than one judgement.
You have the judgment at the end.
You know what's interesting.
Notice the parallel in 9:27 and 9:28 of Hebrews.
It is man dies, then he's judged.
Christ offers Himself once, then He returns.
Well, in His offering, He died.
In His return, we have the judgment.
That's what Scripture teaches.
To give you just a portion of Scripture
that gives this, I think,
in very distinct clarity
is Romans 2.
Why don't we look at one more text
before we move on?
Romans 2
The Apostle Paul says in verse 1,
"Therefore, you have no excuse, O man,
every one of you who judges.
For in passing judgment on another,
you condemn yourself, because you, the judge
practice the very same things."
Verse 2,
"We know that the judgment of God rightly falls
on those who do such things.
Do you suppose, O man, you who judge
those who do such things,
and yet do them yourself,
that you will escape the judgment of God?
Or do you presume on the riches
of His kindness and forebearance
and patience, not knowing that God's kindness
is meant to lead you to repentance?"
Verse 5 is where Judgment Day is introduced to us.
"But, because of your hard and impenitent heart,
you are storing up wrath for yourself
on the day of wrath when God's righteous
judgment will be revealed."
See that? There's a day.
There's not two days.
There's not several days.
There's one day.
And notice, on the one day,
everybody's there.
Verse 6
"He will render to each one according to his works.
On the one hand, to those who by patience
and well doing seek for glory and honor
and immortality, He will give eternal life."
There's the Christian on Judgment Day.
"But for those who are self-seeking
and do not obey the truth,
but obey unrighteousness,
there will be wrath and fury.
There will be tribulation and distress
for every human being who does evil.
The Jew first and also the Greek.
But glory and honor and peace
for everyone who does good,
the Jew first and also the Greek,
for God shows no partiality."
And you know, you may remember
Matthew 25 as well.
What happens when Jesus comes?
You remember the Son of Man,
He comes and He sits.
We looked at that when we were
going through the eschatology series.
He sits down.
And He gathers the nations before Him,
and He divides them,
like a shepherd divides
the sheep and the goats.
You've got everybody there.
It's all at one time.
It's all in one day.
You have the righteous and the unrighteous,
and in the very last verse of Matthew 25,
you have those on His right,
they pass off into eternal life,
those on his left,
into eternal punishment.
So any questions or comments on that?
(from the room)
So is it right to say that right now
the wicked are under the wrath of God
in punishment?
Or I guess I'm just thinking as far as
Romans 2 how specifically it's saying
storing up wrath for a day of wrath
when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
It kind of makes it sound like,
like the rich man, they're under flames
and torment right now,
but could that also be the wrath of God?
Tim: In Romans 1,
we see that the wrath of God
is already revealed.
And one of the ways it's revealed
is God is giving up people
to hardness and to sin.
Because they are going after idols,
and they are going after these lusts and everything.
God is giving them up.
And so, we know that man by nature,
they're called children of wrath.
Obviously if you're put in a place of punishment,
that's not like absent of wrath.
But I guess the picture that you have
is not so much exclusive to all other days.
Not like the Day of Judgment is the day of wrath
and there's no other days of wrath.
It's just a culmination of wrath
I think is the way you'd want to look at it.
Because clearly, we are under
the wrath of God by nature.
And clearly, being put in flames
like Lazarus and Dives you have there in Luke 16.
And some people would say that's a parable,
but 2 Peter is no parable.
2 Peter talks about them being kept
under punishment.
That punishment obviously
is an expression of wrath.
Is it going to get worse?
Is the wrath going to increase?
The second death is the lake of fire.
And yet, if we take Dives in Luke 16
as being an actual account,
which I tend to think it is,
I don't think it's parabolic.
But some people do.
But if you ever get into that debate,
you just run over to 2 Peter.
Some people want to argue for soul sleep.
There's various things that people want to say.
I think there's wrath now
and I think it just culminates.
The only way out,
the only way to be saved from the wrath
is to be under the blood,
whether it's now or later.
(from the room)
So whether there's a degree of wrath
that's greater than the lake of fire or not,
... you don't want either.
Tim: Everybody that's already died
before Judgment Day is obviously
going to pulled from this place of punishment
and brought before the Judge,
and then Jesus describes that.
Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity.
And they're cast away
into the outer darkness.
The lake of fire.
Ok. Any other questions or comments
or observations about that?
(from the room)
So then, that's for the unbeliever.
For the believer then, when they die,
they go to be with the Lord.
Tim: This day, you'll be with Me in paradise.
And yet, on Judgment Day, they are brought forward.
But for them, it's like it says there in Romans 2,
there's eternal life.
Well done, good and faithful servant.
(from the room)
So they're with the Lord,
and then there is a bodily resurrection...
Tim: That's the thing,
the bodily resurrection does not take place
until the judgment.
There's this resurrection of judgment.
There's a resurrection of life.
And that happens on the last day.
That happens when we get to the end.
And so, there's mysteries.
There's no question about it.
This day you'll be with Me in paradise.
There was Moses and Elijah up
on the Mount of Transfiguration.
It's like the disciples knew who they were.
Well, were they body-less?
Were they phantoms?
No, that's not the idea that you get.
But ok, what's the deal with Elijah?
Where's his body at?
He didn't even die.
I mean, I don't know.
I don't have all the answers, and all the answers aren't given to us.
But we do know this,
that the general resurrection
is going to happen there at the last day.
And a classic text on that is found in John 5.
If you want to look there quickly.
John 5
A tremendous chapter of Scripture.
Anyway, if you go to John 5:25.
"Truly, truly, I say to you,
an hour is coming and is now here
when the dead will hear the voice..."
It's now here.
When He was talking.
"When the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God."
That's salvation.
That's hearing His voice.
Having ears to hear the Gospel
and to believe and trust Him.
"Those who hear will live."
They're given eternal life when they believe.
"For as the Father has life in Himself,
so He has granted the Son also
to have life in Himself,
and He has given Him authority
to execute judgment because
He is the Son of Man."
And He says this,
He's going to argue one case with another case.
"Do not marvel at this."
Don't marvel that when I speak,
I'm able to bring people to life spiritually.
"For an hour is coming when all
who are in the tomb..."
All.
Not just good; not just bad.
All.
"...who are in the tombs, will hear His voice,
and come out.
On the one hand, those who have done good,
to the resurrection of life,
those who have done evil,
to the resurrection of judgment."
So you see that reality there.
One general resurrection of the living and the dead.
One general judgment, so says Romans 2
and Matthew 25 and so on.