WEBVTT

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So this is Daniel's question:

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"Do the Scriptures teach that

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two separate judgments will occur

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between the Gospel age

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and the age to come?

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Before coming to any conclusion 
on my eschatology,

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I am not a dispensationalist,

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I am an amillenialist 
(with a smiley face).

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The reason why I am prompted

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to ask this question is because

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according to Hebrews 9:27..."

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So let's all turn to Hebrews 9:27.

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"Do Scriptures teach that

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two separate judgments will occur

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between the Gospel age
and the age to come?"

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And he's asking that question

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because he feels like,

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according to Hebrews 9:27,

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and if you have your Bibles open

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to Hebrews 9:27,

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you see that it says,

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"And just as it is appointed

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for man to die once,

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and after that comes judgment."

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And Daniel says,

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"Just as it is appointed 
for man to die once

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and after that comes the judgment,

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in the text after the words 'die once,'

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it says, 'and after.'

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It sounds like the Apostle Paul

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is stating..."

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(I take issue with you on Apostle Paul)...

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Anyway, the author of Hebrews.

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Daniel is saying that it sounds like

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it's stating that after the death

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of an individual,

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saved or lost,

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judgment will occur right after.

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Yet, you go to Revelation 20:11-15.

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So keep your finger here and 
go to Revelation 20.

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Verse 11-15

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"Then I saw a great white throne,

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and Him who is seated on it,

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from His presence, earth and sky fled away

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and no place was found for them.

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And I saw the dead, great and small,

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standing before the throne,

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and books were opened,

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then another book was opened,

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which is the Book of Life.

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And the dead were judged 
by what was written

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in the books.

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According to what 
they had done.

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And the sea gave 
up the dead

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who were in it.

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Death and Hades 
gave up the dead

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who were in them.

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And they were judged, 
each one of them,

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according to what they had done.

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Then Death and Hades were thrown

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into the lake of fire.

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This is the second death.

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The lake of fire.

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And if anyone's name was not found

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written in the Book of Life,

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he was thrown into the lake of fire."

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So, Daniel says, "yet, you go 
to Revelation 20:11-15,

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which this passage is notoriously known as

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the Great White Throne Judgment."

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I don't think you have to say notoriously.

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Because obviously the text does say

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there's a great white throne

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and there's a judgment.

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Why do you say notorious?

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Daniel: Perhaps in other translations

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it words that particular 
passage differently,

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so just to give a general 
title on that passage

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was the Great White Throne Judgment.

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Because on my translation 
it doesn't say that.

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Tim: On your translation it what?

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Daniel: It says judgment 
at the throne of God.

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Tim: Yeah, mine says the Great
White Throne Judgement.

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I mean, I have a heading.

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I recognize it's not inspired, but...

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I don't think we have to be so notorious,

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because it is a judgment that happens

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at the great white throne.

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It speaks about another judgment

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involving the dead.

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The Book of Life, books being opened,

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being judged for our works,

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and Death and Hades being

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thrown into the lake of fire.

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This judgment will occur 
at the end of the age.

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How do you properly interpret

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both of these passages?

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So, basically, his question is this.

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It sounds like there's 
a judgment at the end,

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but it sounds like there's 
a judgment immediately

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after death as well.

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Well, ok, let's go back to Hebrews 9:27.

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Because Daniel was basically

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going off of what Hebrews 9:27 
sounds like it's saying

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when taken all by itself.

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But it's really important that that text

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be taken in its context.

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Because the author of Hebrews is not

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primarily talking about 
death and judgment.

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He's primarily talking about Christ

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and His one sacrifice.

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Let's just pick up at Hebrews 9:22.

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"Indeed, under the law, almost everything

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is purified with blood."

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So under Moses, God designed it

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so that blood was necessary for much

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of the ceremonial purification

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that took place.

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"And without the shedding of blood,

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there is no forgiveness of sins.

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Thus, it was necessary for the copies

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of the heavenly things..."

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The copies.

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The stuff that happened

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under Moses were copies.

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Christ is the reality.

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"It was necessary for the copies

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of the heavenly things to be purified

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with these rights."

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In other words, with blood rights.

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"But the heavenly things..."

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In other words, the things that

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pertain to Christ and His one offering.

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"The heavenly things themselves

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with better sacrifices than these."

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Why, because they were animals.

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They were animal sacrifices.

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It was animal blood.

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The blood of bulls and goats

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does not do anything for sin.

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Verse 24

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"For Christ has entered,

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not into holy places made with hands,

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not like the copies,

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which are copies of the true things,

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but into heaven itself,

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now to appear in the presence of God

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on our behalf.

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Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly

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as the high priest enters the holy places

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every year with blood not his own.

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For then, He would have 
had to suffer repeatedly."

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So, he's arguing here.

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Christ did not have to suffer repeatedly.

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"It wasn't to offer Himself repeatedly."

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Why did those have 
to be offered repeatedly?

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Because they never accomplished anything.

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There was never any removal of sin.

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So, they had to 
keep coming back;

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keep coming back;
keep coming back.

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And you remember, one 
of the arguments made

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is that these guys stood 
daily in the temple.

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When Jesus was done, He sat down.

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There were no chairs in the temple.

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"He would have had to suffer repeatedly

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since the foundation of the world.

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But, as it is, He has 
appeared once for all

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at the end of the ages, to put away sin

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by the sacrifice of Himself."

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Now, notice this.

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Everything has been about Christ

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and His offering.

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"And just as..."

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Now, you need to notice that.

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Just as...

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"Just as it is appointed 
for man to die once

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and after that comes judgment..."

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Just like that happens.

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Just as man dies, and then after that

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is the judgment,

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"so Christ having been offered once

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to bear the sins of many,

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will appear a second time."

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Do you see the parallel?

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Man dies - then the judgment,

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is parallel to

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Christ dying in His offering,

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and then returning the second time.

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Well, I would ask this:

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is Christ's second coming immediately

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after He offered Himself?

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Because that's the parallel.

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Well, no.

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It's a long time later.

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And so because those are the two things

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being compared there,

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there would be no sense,

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there would be no reason,

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there would be nothing 
about the parallel

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that would require us to say,

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oh, the judgment must be immediately

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after death.

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Do you see what I'm saying?

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So, taken in context,

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and then we'll pick up verse 28,

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"So, Christ having been offered

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once to bear the sins of many,

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will appear a second time,

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not to deal with sin,

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but to save those who are

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eagerly waiting for Him."

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I would just give you a text

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maybe we could look at very quickly

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before we move 
on to the second question.

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Jump over to 2 Peter.

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2 Peter 2 has the classic text,

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in my estimation,

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on the intermediate state.

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By intermediate state, 
I mean when people die,

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what happens between 
death and the judgment.

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And notice what's being said here.

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2 Peter 2:4

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"For if God did not spare angels

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when they sinned, but 
cast them into hell..."

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So you see what's happened.

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The angels sinned.

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Cast into hell.

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Well, you say, wait,

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some of those angels are fallen

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and they're running around still.

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Well, it seems like Scripture teaches

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that some were cast away.

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Some are not allowed...

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I'm not here to talk 
about the angels so much.

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But, cast them into hell,

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and notice this - the intermediate state,

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from the time they sinned

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until the judgment.

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"Committed them to 
chains of gloomy darkness,

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to be kept until the judgment."

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You see, they weren't judged immediately.

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They're put in a holding tank, as it were.

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Now you say, ok, that's 
talking about angels.

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That's not talking about people.

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Ok.

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Peter talks about people when he gets

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down to verse 9.

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"The Lord knows how to rescue

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the godly from trials."

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And notice this.

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"And to keep the unrighteous

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under punishment until 
the day of judgment."

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You see that?

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Not only angels, but men too,

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are kept under punishment.

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There is a place of punishment.

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There's a place of holding.

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It doesn't say that they were

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immediately judged.

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It says that they're being 
kept until the judgment.

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Does that make sense?

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So, I think we see that

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no, there isn't more than one judgement.

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You have the judgment at the end.

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You know what's interesting.

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Notice the parallel in 
9:27 and 9:28 of Hebrews.

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It is man dies, then he's judged.

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Christ offers Himself 
once, then He returns.

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Well, in His offering, He died.

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In His return, we have the judgment.

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That's what Scripture teaches.

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To give you just a portion of Scripture

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that gives this, I think,

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in very distinct clarity

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is Romans 2.

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Why don't we look at one more text

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before we move on?

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Romans 2

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The Apostle Paul says in verse 1,

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"Therefore, you have 
no excuse, O man,

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every one of you who judges.

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For in passing judgment on another,

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you condemn yourself, 
because you, the judge

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practice the very same things."

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Verse 2,

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"We know that the 
judgment of God rightly falls

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on those who do such things.

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Do you suppose, O man, you who judge

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those who do such things,

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and yet do them yourself,

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that you will escape the judgment of God?

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Or do you presume on the riches

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of His kindness and forebearance

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and patience, not 
knowing that God's kindness

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is meant to lead you to repentance?"

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Verse 5 is where Judgment 
Day is introduced to us.

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"But, because of your hard 
and impenitent heart,

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you are storing up wrath for yourself

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on the day of wrath when God's righteous

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judgment will be revealed."

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See that? There's a day.

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There's not two days.

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There's not several days.

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There's one day.

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And notice, on the one day,

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everybody's there.

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Verse 6

00:14:17.364 --> 00:14:21.773
"He will render to each one 
according to his works.

00:14:21.773 --> 00:14:24.302
On the one hand, to those who by patience

00:14:24.302 --> 00:14:26.365
and well doing seek for glory and honor

00:14:26.365 --> 00:14:28.712
and immortality, He 
will give eternal life."

00:14:28.712 --> 00:14:30.719
There's the Christian on Judgment Day.

00:14:30.719 --> 00:14:32.838
"But for those who are self-seeking

00:14:32.838 --> 00:14:34.574
and do not obey the truth,

00:14:34.574 --> 00:14:36.128
but obey unrighteousness,

00:14:36.128 --> 00:14:38.057
there will be wrath and fury.

00:14:38.057 --> 00:14:40.374
There will be tribulation and distress

00:14:40.374 --> 00:14:42.911
for every human being who does evil.

00:14:42.911 --> 00:14:45.146
The Jew first and also the Greek.

00:14:45.146 --> 00:14:47.831
But glory and honor and peace

00:14:47.831 --> 00:14:49.350
for everyone who does good,

00:14:49.350 --> 00:14:51.433
the Jew first and also the Greek,

00:14:51.433 --> 00:14:53.965
for God shows no partiality."

00:14:53.965 --> 00:14:55.502
And you know, you may remember

00:14:55.502 --> 00:14:57.698
Matthew 25 as well.

00:14:57.698 --> 00:14:59.304
What happens when Jesus comes?

00:14:59.304 --> 00:15:00.750
You remember the Son of Man,

00:15:00.750 --> 00:15:02.167
He comes and He sits.

00:15:02.167 --> 00:15:03.448
We looked at that 
when we were

00:15:03.448 --> 00:15:05.097
going through the 
eschatology series.

00:15:05.097 --> 00:15:06.294
He sits down.

00:15:06.294 --> 00:15:08.953
And He gathers the nations before Him,

00:15:08.953 --> 00:15:10.744
and He divides them,

00:15:10.744 --> 00:15:13.744
like a shepherd divides

00:15:13.744 --> 00:15:15.208
the sheep and the goats.

00:15:15.208 --> 00:15:16.533
You've got everybody there.

00:15:16.533 --> 00:15:17.752
It's all at one time.

00:15:17.752 --> 00:15:19.680
It's all in one day.

00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:21.778
You have the righteous 
and the unrighteous,

00:15:21.778 --> 00:15:23.928
and in the very last verse of Matthew 25,

00:15:23.928 --> 00:15:25.925
you have those on His right,

00:15:25.925 --> 00:15:27.941
they pass off into eternal life,

00:15:27.941 --> 00:15:29.155
those on his left,

00:15:29.155 --> 00:15:32.788
into eternal punishment.

00:15:32.788 --> 00:15:38.538
So any questions or comments on that?

00:15:38.538 --> 00:15:39.629
(from the room)

00:15:39.629 --> 00:15:41.575
So is it right to say that right now

00:15:41.575 --> 00:15:44.407
the wicked are under the wrath of God

00:15:44.407 --> 00:15:46.210
in punishment?

00:15:46.210 --> 00:15:48.126
Or I guess I'm just thinking as far as

00:15:48.126 --> 00:15:50.571
Romans 2 how specifically it's saying

00:15:50.571 --> 00:15:54.573
storing up wrath for a day of wrath

00:15:54.573 --> 00:15:57.421
when God's righteous 
judgment will be revealed.

00:15:57.421 --> 00:15:59.810
It kind of makes it sound like,

00:15:59.810 --> 00:16:02.228
like the rich man, they're under flames

00:16:02.228 --> 00:16:04.401
and torment right now,

00:16:04.401 --> 00:16:09.570
but could that also be the wrath of God?

00:16:09.570 --> 00:16:12.221
Tim: In Romans 1,

00:16:12.221 --> 00:16:13.744
we see that the wrath of God

00:16:13.744 --> 00:16:15.349
is already revealed.

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And one of the ways it's revealed

00:16:17.143 --> 00:16:19.678
is God is giving up people

00:16:19.678 --> 00:16:22.197
to hardness and to sin.

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Because they are going after idols,

00:16:24.986 --> 00:16:29.202
and they are going after 
these lusts and everything.

00:16:29.202 --> 00:16:31.163
God is giving them up.

00:16:31.163 --> 00:16:34.396
And so, we know that man by nature,

00:16:34.396 --> 00:16:37.854
they're called children of wrath.

00:16:37.854 --> 00:16:40.653
Obviously if you're put 
in a place of punishment,

00:16:40.653 --> 00:16:44.437
that's not like absent of wrath.

00:16:44.437 --> 00:16:47.221
But I guess the picture that you have

00:16:47.221 --> 00:16:49.951
is not so much 
exclusive to all other days.

00:16:49.951 --> 00:16:52.386
Not like the Day of 
Judgment is the day of wrath

00:16:52.386 --> 00:16:54.266
and there's no other days of wrath.

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It's just a culmination of wrath

00:16:56.697 --> 00:17:02.070
I think is the way you'd 
want to look at it.

00:17:02.070 --> 00:17:04.086
Because clearly, we are under

00:17:04.086 --> 00:17:08.649
the wrath of God by nature.

00:17:08.649 --> 00:17:14.888
And clearly, being put in flames

00:17:14.888 --> 00:17:23.225
like Lazarus and Dives 
you have there in Luke 16.

00:17:23.225 --> 00:17:27.858
And some people would 
say that's a parable,

00:17:27.858 --> 00:17:30.378
but 2 Peter is no parable.

00:17:30.378 --> 00:17:34.073
2 Peter talks about them being kept

00:17:34.073 --> 00:17:36.223
under punishment.

00:17:36.223 --> 00:17:38.301
That punishment obviously

00:17:38.301 --> 00:17:40.069
is an expression of wrath.

00:17:40.069 --> 00:17:42.198
Is it going to get worse?

00:17:42.198 --> 00:17:47.463
Is the wrath going to increase?

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The second death is the lake of fire.

00:17:50.954 --> 00:17:54.756
And yet, if we take Dives in Luke 16

00:17:54.756 --> 00:17:57.260
as being an actual account,

00:17:57.260 --> 00:17:58.965
which I tend to think it is,

00:17:58.965 --> 00:18:01.035
I don't think it's parabolic.

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But some people do.

00:18:02.691 --> 00:18:05.262
But if you ever get into that debate,

00:18:05.262 --> 00:18:07.523
you just run over to 2 Peter.

00:18:07.523 --> 00:18:11.098
Some people want to argue for soul sleep.

00:18:11.098 --> 00:18:16.949
There's various things 
that people want to say.

00:18:16.949 --> 00:18:19.023
I think there's wrath now

00:18:19.023 --> 00:18:21.366
and I think it just culminates.

00:18:21.366 --> 00:18:22.377
The only way out,

00:18:22.377 --> 00:18:24.297
the only way to be 
saved from the wrath

00:18:24.297 --> 00:18:25.561
is to be under the blood,

00:18:25.561 --> 00:18:27.201
whether it's now or later.

00:18:27.201 --> 00:18:27.811
(from the room)

00:18:27.811 --> 00:18:29.560
So whether there's 
a degree of wrath

00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:32.319
that's greater than 
the lake of fire or not,

00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:37.863
... you don't want either.

00:18:37.863 --> 00:18:39.664
Tim: Everybody that's already died

00:18:39.664 --> 00:18:41.344
before Judgment Day is obviously

00:18:41.344 --> 00:18:43.616
going to pulled from 
this place of punishment

00:18:43.616 --> 00:18:46.221
and brought before the Judge,

00:18:46.221 --> 00:18:48.882
and then Jesus describes that.

00:18:48.882 --> 00:18:51.416
Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity.

00:18:51.416 --> 00:18:57.106
And they're cast away

00:18:57.106 --> 00:19:00.340
into the outer darkness.

00:19:00.340 --> 00:19:05.462
The lake of fire.

00:19:05.462 --> 00:19:10.972
Ok. Any other questions or comments

00:19:10.972 --> 00:19:13.691
or observations about that?

00:19:13.691 --> 00:19:14.751
(from the room)

00:19:14.751 --> 00:19:17.382
So then, that's for the unbeliever.

00:19:17.382 --> 00:19:20.706
For the believer then, when they die,

00:19:20.706 --> 00:19:22.109
they go to be with the Lord.

00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:24.538
Tim: This day, you'll be 
with Me in paradise.

00:19:24.538 --> 00:19:28.373
And yet, on Judgment Day, 
they are brought forward.

00:19:28.373 --> 00:19:32.177
But for them, it's like it 
says there in Romans 2,

00:19:32.177 --> 00:19:35.780
there's eternal life.

00:19:35.780 --> 00:19:39.075
Well done, good and faithful servant.

00:19:39.075 --> 00:19:39.926
(from the room)

00:19:39.926 --> 00:19:41.167
So they're with the Lord,

00:19:41.167 --> 00:19:43.184
and then there is a bodily resurrection...

00:19:43.184 --> 00:19:44.657
Tim: That's the thing,

00:19:44.657 --> 00:19:47.665
the bodily resurrection 
does not take place

00:19:47.665 --> 00:19:50.324
until the judgment.

00:19:50.324 --> 00:19:53.906
There's this resurrection of judgment.

00:19:53.906 --> 00:19:57.599
There's a resurrection of life.

00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.672
And that happens on the last day.

00:20:01.672 --> 00:20:04.358
That happens when we get to the end.

00:20:04.358 --> 00:20:06.678
And so, there's mysteries.

00:20:06.678 --> 00:20:08.693
There's no question about it.

00:20:08.693 --> 00:20:10.941
This day you'll be with Me in paradise.

00:20:10.941 --> 00:20:12.428
There was Moses and Elijah up

00:20:12.428 --> 00:20:14.154
on the Mount of Transfiguration.

00:20:14.154 --> 00:20:16.250
It's like the disciples 
knew who they were.

00:20:16.250 --> 00:20:18.031
Well, were they body-less?

00:20:18.031 --> 00:20:19.266
Were they phantoms?

00:20:19.266 --> 00:20:21.101
No, that's not the idea that you get.

00:20:21.101 --> 00:20:25.732
But ok, what's the deal with Elijah?

00:20:25.732 --> 00:20:27.492
Where's his body at?

00:20:27.492 --> 00:20:29.292
He didn't even die.

00:20:29.292 --> 00:20:30.468
I mean, I don't know.

00:20:30.468 --> 00:20:32.734
I don't have all the answers,
and all the answers aren't given to us.

00:20:32.734 --> 00:20:34.002
But we do know this,

00:20:34.002 --> 00:20:37.818
that the general resurrection

00:20:37.818 --> 00:20:40.107
is going to happen there at the last day.

00:20:40.107 --> 00:20:44.953
And a classic text on 
that is found in John 5.

00:20:44.953 --> 00:20:57.213
If you want to look there quickly.

00:20:57.213 --> 00:21:02.864
John 5

00:21:02.864 --> 00:21:08.632
A tremendous chapter of Scripture.

00:21:08.632 --> 00:21:12.778
Anyway, if you go to John 5:25.

00:21:12.778 --> 00:21:14.528
"Truly, truly, I say to you,

00:21:14.528 --> 00:21:22.712
an hour is coming and is now here

00:21:22.712 --> 00:21:24.880
when the dead will hear the voice..."

00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:26.235
It's now here.

00:21:26.235 --> 00:21:28.334
When He was talking.

00:21:28.334 --> 00:21:30.987
"When the dead will hear 
the voice of the Son of God."

00:21:30.987 --> 00:21:32.746
That's salvation.

00:21:32.746 --> 00:21:34.983
That's hearing His voice.

00:21:34.983 --> 00:21:37.802
Having ears to hear the Gospel

00:21:37.802 --> 00:21:39.277
and to believe and trust Him.

00:21:39.277 --> 00:21:41.528
"Those who hear will live."

00:21:41.528 --> 00:21:43.758
They're given eternal 
life when they believe.

00:21:43.758 --> 00:21:44.833
"For as the Father 
has life in Himself,

00:21:44.833 --> 00:21:46.347
so He has granted the Son also

00:21:46.347 --> 00:21:48.182
to have life in Himself,

00:21:48.182 --> 00:21:49.682
and He has given Him authority

00:21:49.682 --> 00:21:51.061
to execute judgment because

00:21:51.061 --> 00:21:52.522
He is the Son of Man."

00:21:52.522 --> 00:21:53.791
And He says this,

00:21:53.791 --> 00:21:57.933
He's going to argue one 
case with another case.

00:21:57.933 --> 00:21:59.754
"Do not marvel at this."

00:21:59.754 --> 00:22:02.118
Don't marvel that when I speak,

00:22:02.118 --> 00:22:05.769
I'm able to bring 
people to life spiritually.

00:22:05.769 --> 00:22:07.376
"For an hour is coming when all

00:22:07.376 --> 00:22:09.700
who are in the tomb..."

00:22:09.700 --> 00:22:11.515
All.

00:22:11.515 --> 00:22:13.163
Not just good; not just bad.

00:22:13.163 --> 00:22:16.880
All.

00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.143
"...who are in the tombs, 
will hear His voice,

00:22:19.143 --> 00:22:20.476
and come out.

00:22:20.476 --> 00:22:22.249
On the one hand, those 
who have done good,

00:22:22.249 --> 00:22:23.485
to the resurrection of life,

00:22:23.485 --> 00:22:25.125
those who have done evil,

00:22:25.125 --> 00:22:28.248
to the resurrection of judgment."

00:22:28.248 --> 00:22:31.365
So you see that reality there.

00:22:31.365 --> 00:22:37.395
One general resurrection 
of the living and the dead.

00:22:37.395 --> 00:22:42.240
One general judgment, so says Romans 2

00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:47.087
and Matthew 25 and so on.