WEBVTT
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preroll music
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Herald: Actually, we have two
consecutive talks of half an hour.
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And as they’re both on the
same more-or-less topic
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we’ve decided to junk
them. One is right now,
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that’s Thomas Lohninger from
Austria, my home country.
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And the next one is Fredy
Kuenzler from Switzerland.
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And they’re both talking about the same
problem. You know the old Churchill
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saying: “There’s two things you
don’t wanna know exactly, that’s
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how do they make sausages,
and how do they make laws?”.
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Well, actually, you do wanna know
exactly how they make laws!
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Otherwise you find yourself
with a law you don’t want.
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And a sarco enemy can avoid a banger,
but you can’t avoid a law.
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So Thomas here is gonna tell you
about the fight for net neutrality
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in Europe. And let’s have a big
hand for Thomas Lohninger!
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applause
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Thomas: Hello and thank you,
everybody! Good.
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So, let’s dive right in. We have a lot of
ground to cover for the past 3 years
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which have to fit in the next 30 minutes.
So I’m gonna talk fast at the end,
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so that we have a little bit more
time for the outlook in the future.
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The subtitle of this talk is ‘Alea iacta
est’, so ‘the dices have fallen’
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which in fact is not really true.
We now have legislation
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in Europe for the first time, binding
legislation for net neutrality
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in all 28 member states. And this
talk will be about the history
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of this legislation and how civil society
played a huge role in this law.
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But still the law that we have
now is really ambiguous;
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so the fight is not over. There are next
steps to come which will actually give it
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real meaning, and influence what net
neutrality we’ll actually have in Europe.
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A little bit of introduction: So,
net neutrality in principle is
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the universality of the network.
As you see here
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we’re all interconnected
over the network and…
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the basic foundational principles
that boil down in these days
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– in the age of deep packet inspection
and discriminatory pricing –
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net neutrality boils down to
discrimination protection.
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And it’s basically preventing
ISPs to establish
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new discriminatory business models.
This was also the starting point
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for this European legislation called
‘Telecom Civil Market’. It’s a regulation;
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that means it’s directly applicable
in all 28 member states,
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not like a directive. It doesn’t have to
be transposed to national legislation,
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it’s already a law in all 28 countries.
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And the responsible commissioner, back in
September 2013, when it was introduced,
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is this old lady, Neelie Kroes.
Audio/Video playback starts
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Neelie Kroes: It is a fact that we are all
connected or we want to be connected.
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So this package is essential for
Europe’s strategic interests,
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for Europe’s economic progress.
It is absolutely crucial
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for the telecom sector itself.
And, of course, for citizens
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who need full and fair access
to telecom services such as
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internet, and such as mobile services.
Audio/Video playback stops
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Thomas: “Such as internet”…
This is also the spirit of this whole law.
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You have internet, which is kind of
neutral, and then you have other stuff.
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Like specialized services, which you
could basically translate in your head to
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‘net neutrality violation’, or ‘paid
fast lanes’. And if you look
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at the original Commission proposal,
which they put in front of us, they had
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really weird language, like “within
the contract that you enter into
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with your ISP you’re not allowed to
discriminate”. But if the contract states
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that you have discriminatory pricing,
or different speeds for different types
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of applications that would be legal, under
the original Commission proposal.
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The Commission had a 3-fold
strategy: It used the election
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to get the Parliament to adopt
this regulation really fast,
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to put it in a hurry, to rush this
thing through before the elections
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in May 2014. It used a populist
element which was roaming.
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If you have heard any coverage about
this legislation it was probably
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about the roaming part. That Europe
would abolish roaming charges
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which was actually kind of a fuzzy deal.
You will still have Roaming charges
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but you will have different names and
different forms. But that was something
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which made it essential for all
MEPs, for all parliamentarians
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in the European Parliament to
pass this legislation really fast.
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And they used bizarre and complex
language as you’ve just seen:
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the whole regulation was full of that.
And the fourth point is
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that in their language, in the PR
strategy, they were always claiming
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to support net neutrality. We see the
same thing with Guenther Oettinger now,
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the successor of Neelie Kroes, he’s also
saying that he supports net neutrality,
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but in fact he’s doing the opposite.
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So what have we done, once this
regulation was in front of us?
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We started to write amendments
in a wiki. Actually it took us
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only a month to come up with
the first improvements for this text.
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And I also said that I wanted
to give some ‘lessons-learned’.
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The first lesson-to-learn if you want to
influence European policy is: Come early!
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The earlier you are on the table, the
earlier you start talking with officials
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about a subject the more influence
you will have on the process. So
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if you want to influence legislation don’t
look what is in the calendar next month
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– look what is in the calendar in 3 years.
Then you have a good chance
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to really make a difference. And we
had the ‘savetheinternet’ campaign
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which was actually launched here
on that stage, 3 years ago.
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And the talk with Markus
Beckedahl at 30C3.
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And the website basically
followed a simple idea.
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Translate attention into political force.
Give people something to do.
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And provide actionable items – it’s the
second lesson that you can take away
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from that. You have to give
people something to do.
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Otherwise they will not care about
the subject. Otherwise they will
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not get really involved.
They will not feel like they have
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a part in whatever political
issue you wanna raise.
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And emboss these
actionable items actually;
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translate the attention and the will
of the citizens into something
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that’s in front of the officials,
in front of the parliamentarians.
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In our case: calls, faxes,
tweets and emails.
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These were our actionable items; and
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here I also want to thank Michael
Bauer who was the core developer
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of all the contact-your-MEP
tools of savetheinternet
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besides the Pi phone from
laquadraturedenet who sadly deceased
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with a heart attack this year. And…
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applause
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But without him we never would
have made it in such a good time.
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He developed the whole contact
suite in like a week or so.
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He was a really brilliant person.
So the fax thing was really cool.
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We sent around 40,000 faxes to the
parliament[arian]s, 20,000 of which
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were already also received by them. Here
again, I want to thank the ISP Kappa
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who sponsored us all those faxes
for free, for the first round.
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We didn’t have to pay for any of them.
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So third lesson is: be creative.
So faxes were a novel thing,
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It wasn’t done any time before.
And so they were really influential
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because suddenly you would have
a physical token of a citizen’s will
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in the office of the parliamentarian. But
like every creative campaigning idea
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only works once or twice now the
Parliament has switched to
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an electronic fax delivery.
So this idea no longer works.
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At least not so efficiently.
So you have to adopt fast.
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This is the process in the
European Parliament.
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You have these several committees
which all adopt their opinions
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on the legislation. And then the whole
thing goes into the leading committee
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– the Industry Committee in this
case. And then to plenary.
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Here I wanna thank Petra Kammerevert,
German Social Democrat.
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It was like the only MEP that sticked with
us, from the beginning to the end.
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She was really fighting like hell.
And she was one of the good guys.
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One of the bad guys is [Vera] Pilar del
Castillo, the Rapporteur down there,
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in the ITRE committee. As
a Rapporteur she has a lot of power
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over the process of this legislation
in Europe. And she was really
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working against us wherever she could.
And also working against the opinion
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of the European Parliament. So she was not
really negotiating to get the good deal
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that the parliament adopted in plenary
in first reading. She was really working
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to get what the telcos and Telefonica
are wanting. And so in the plenary
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we actually managed to get amendments
through. Before that, it looked quite grim
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but we had those amendments
which got a majority
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and which brought us the victory.
Because this legislation is now passed
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and published in the journal, I’m now
also at liberty to speak a little bit more
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about what is the background
of it. And actually,
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as you have here in this email
from a UK Social Democrat,
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the text came from civil society,
which in fact is true.
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When we drafted this text there were
like 3 things that we had to do.
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We had to fix all loop holes. We had
to change as little as necessary,
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so only minor text changes.
Every word is costly.
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And we couldn’t use any politically
loaded phrases. So we had to come up
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with totally new language. Which
would solve all problems but still
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get a majority which in fact
we managed to achieve.
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There was also a bigger majority…
applause
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So that’s us celebrating
after the victory. And…
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that was big fun. So fourth lesson
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to take away is: Be clear about
your demands with politicians.
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You will not succeed in asking
for stuff that you will not…
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that is impossible for the politician.
You have to ask for something
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which is realistic. And in their eyes
getting a good text in first reading
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was realistic. But there were many
formality arguments in second reading.
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Which worked against us, and
at the end broke our necks.
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One was that the parliament is
not really emancipated from
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the other institutions. Council has much
more power. So the member states
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really can make demands and draw red lines
that the parliament is not really willing
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to step over. And ‘second reading’ also
means that you need an absolute majority
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for any amendment. Not just a simple
majority. So half of all MEPs
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and not just those who
are present at the vote.
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But it’s not all just the first reading:
here you have a basic idea of
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how laws are adopted in the European
Union. With the Commission on top,
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the Parliament at the left and the member
states in the Council on the right.
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And we had savetheinternet
campaigns for all of those steps.
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And basically when the Commission adopted
their proposal that was of course
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anti net neutrality at its best.
The Parliament fixed it,
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the Council reverted it and really came
up with a text that was partly even worse
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than what the Commission
originally wanted.
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And then those 3 institutions sat
together in the most intransparent way
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you could imagine… and came
together and made a new text.
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And the agreement here, in trialub (?),
that was actually reached
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at 2 AM with everybody almost
asleep, everybody like:
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“Okay, let’s fix this, let’s fix this…”.
And the Liberals,
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the Greens, the Left, all of them were
already out of the room. They were saying:
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“Okay, no deal, we’ll continue
after the summer break,
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let’s just not continue any
more discussion!” And then
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the negotiator from the Social Democrats,
Patricia Toia, she was already standing
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in the doorway with her
handbag in her hand.
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And then she agreed to this proposal.
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Because the Conservatives gave her some
concessions on Roaming, then she agreed,
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to the shitty net neutrality. So that’s
it actually what it boils down to,
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at some stages. And it was [Pilar del]
Castillo who was driving this compromise.
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So we had a really bad text
which was on the table.
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And agreed between all 3 institutions.
But then it would still need
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to go through Parliament.
And we had to ask ourselves
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over the summer break: “Is this text
worse than useless?” Should we really
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fight for amendments, or
should we fight for deletion?
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This was a huge argument
within the savetheinternet coalition.
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And even I was sympathetic
with both sides.
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But at the end we thought
this text is better than
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e.g. what the US had in their first
net neutrality law. And therefor
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it’s worth fighting. Because maybe there
are countries, like Austria, like Germany,
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like the Netherlands that have or
would adopt good legislation.
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But many other countries would not.
And so, in the sense of the European Union
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we thought: “Better have this compromise
for 28 instead of just a few good laws.”
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And then something really magical
happened. Because finally we got support
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from the US. We had Barbara van
Schewick, the world’s leading expert
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and scientist on net neutrality
speaking out in support for us.
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So did Lawrence Lessig, so
did Sir Tim Berners-Lee, and
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many other supporters. And we also had
companies getting involved, start-ups
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and big internet companies like Wordpress.
And we also had venture capitalists
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that urged the parliamentarians to
really adopt these amendments,
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make this a clear legislation. Because
otherwise they would stop investing
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into European start-ups. Because I would
not get money into a business model
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which might not work in a few months.
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And also in Germany we had big
support from the media authorities,
00:14:27.009 --> 00:14:31.200
the Landesmedienanstalten, and the
Association of German Journalists.
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Many others. But really, what we
didn’t do here, we didn’t come early.
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This was all a last-minute action. The
real traction this whole thing gained
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one week before the final vote!
And that was too late.
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If we could have had this traction,
this media coverage beforehand
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then it might have turned out differently.
But what you can take away from that is
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that we have to broaden our movement.
That we really have to go
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out of the net political nerd bubble.
We have to reach other people.
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Digital rights issues are
broad civil society issues.
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And we have to treat them as such.
Go to the churches. Go to the journalists.
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Go to whomever is willing to listen, and
make your cause, and broaden the movement.
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And we had really creative
actions like here in Barcelona.
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Our member Xnet had this nice projection
on the building of Telefonica.
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But at the end it didn’t work. We
failed in Second Reading. And I have
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to speed up a little bit and explain you
why this is not the end of net neutrality.
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I know this was in the media quite
heavily. And if you look at it binarily,
00:15:35.509 --> 00:15:38.960
of course this is a loss for us because
we campaigned for amendments
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and we did not succeed. But still
the text it’s now on the table.
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The biggest problem
is that it’s ambiguous.
00:15:45.170 --> 00:15:49.860
But it has some good parts in it. And one
word of advice: you have to keep in mind
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that the US also needed two
approaches to get this right.
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The first net neutrality laws were
even worse than what we have now.
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There is clarity that this is now
applicable – not only to fixed line
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but also to mobile internet. And at least
we’ll see no longer commercial blocking
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in Europe. You could still have state
blocking, so like censorship lists
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from any public authority. But
you could not e.g. block Skype
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if you are a mobile operator and want
people corner into using your own roaming.
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There is intentional ambiguity, and all
the big questions about net neutrality and
00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:29.290
paid fast lanes. And so the real decision
is now left to the unelected regulators.
00:16:29.290 --> 00:16:33.630
And to the unelected judges. We
most certainly expect court cases
00:16:33.630 --> 00:16:38.490
in front of the European High Court.
And this means huge legal uncertainty.
00:16:38.490 --> 00:16:44.029
Which is really bad. Not only for
citizens but also for business.
00:16:44.029 --> 00:16:50.020
So there are 4 big subjects
we have to cover.
00:16:50.020 --> 00:16:54.009
That are still in the debate now with the
European regulator that’s now tasked with
00:16:54.009 --> 00:16:59.000
giving this law actual meaning.
Specialized services…
00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.730
as I said you could translate it in
your head with ‘paid fast lanes’
00:17:02.730 --> 00:17:06.660
and ‘not net neutrality’ or with ‘those
services that really have nothing to do
00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:10.630
with the internet’. That has to be our
goal here. There are 5 safeguards
00:17:10.630 --> 00:17:15.540
in the regulation that we have to apply
right and then we can still achieve
00:17:15.540 --> 00:17:21.660
that goal. But the regulators… like
these are the 28 organizations
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:26.210
in Europe that are tasked with
regulating the telecom markets.
00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:29.590
They are not doing anything else than
reading laws and applying them
00:17:29.590 --> 00:17:34.040
on the market. And that’s one of the
questions they asked us in the hearing.
00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:39.020
So would it be okay to have internet
services as specialized services?
00:17:39.020 --> 00:17:42.610
And you can see how really vague and
ambiguous this law is, if this is
00:17:42.610 --> 00:17:47.720
the basic question that they’re asking us.
Similarly with zero rating, the practice
00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:52.250
of commercial discrimination. If some
data packages cost more than others.
00:17:52.250 --> 00:17:56.130
Again, we have some sort
of safeguard here.
00:17:56.130 --> 00:18:00.980
But ‘commercial practices’ is the corner
word here. Because zero rating
00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:05.100
is not mentioned in the whole legislation.
‘Commercial practices’ – and that’s
00:18:05.100 --> 00:18:09.260
the funny part. They’re asking us
– the regulators asking civil society –
00:18:09.260 --> 00:18:13.580
what in our understanding ‘commercial
practices’ actually means. And
00:18:13.580 --> 00:18:17.750
from our perspective there are 2 ways of
seeing it. Either it means ‘zero rating’
00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:22.180
in which case it has to be prohibited. Or
it means anything else in which case
00:18:22.180 --> 00:18:29.980
e.g. it could mean ‘interconnection’.
That applies perfectly to the legislation.
00:18:29.980 --> 00:18:35.100
But in that case this whole topic would
be left for national legislation.
00:18:35.100 --> 00:18:39.650
So the Dutch net neutrality law
could still outlaw zero rating,
00:18:39.650 --> 00:18:44.380
or Germany could adopt a new law
which would prohibit that practice.
00:18:44.380 --> 00:18:48.750
A very important point which was
sadly not so much discussed
00:18:48.750 --> 00:18:53.460
is traffic management. There is
a risk that ISPs could introduce
00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:59.070
a class based CIF system to manage
congestion, e.g. That would look like:
00:18:59.070 --> 00:19:02.180
“Okay, we have all video streaming
applications in one class
00:19:02.180 --> 00:19:07.500
and we prioritize them. But we don’t
prioritize telephony applications,
00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:12.020
because although they also are
delay-sensitive they are
00:19:12.020 --> 00:19:16.210
against our own business models, and
therefor we are not prioritizing them.”
00:19:16.210 --> 00:19:20.190
Class-based traffic management has another
big problem. And you can look at the UK
00:19:20.190 --> 00:19:27.340
where this is a common practice.
If you want to throttle file-sharing
00:19:27.340 --> 00:19:30.690
and you have some gaming applications
that look similar like file-sharing
00:19:30.690 --> 00:19:33.930
you could end up with
throttled gaming applications
00:19:33.930 --> 00:19:38.650
which make the games unusable.
And so in the UK you have now
00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:43.750
standing committees between game
developers and ISPs like Plusnet
00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:47.950
and before they have a rollout of a new
game they have to sit down and agree
00:19:47.950 --> 00:19:51.220
on the technical characteristics,
so that the game actually works
00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:55.120
in the British internet. And this is
the total opposite of innovation
00:19:55.120 --> 00:19:59.400
without permission.
And from our understanding
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:03.700
traffic management always has to be
as application agnostic as possible.
00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:08.290
So: only look at the header, don’t
look in the contents of the package,
00:20:08.290 --> 00:20:13.640
don’t make any differentiation
between applications or services.
00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.960
And there’s also a problem: If you
look at the content, if you want
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:20.960
to treat encrypted traffic differently
there is a risk that all encrypted traffic
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:29.030
could end up in the slow lane.
00:20:29.030 --> 00:20:32.600
In principle this is what we want to
achieve. Be as application agnostic
00:20:32.600 --> 00:20:36.950
as possible and then only allow
traffic management based
00:20:36.950 --> 00:20:41.030
on technical characteristics where it is
really necessary and proportionate
00:20:41.030 --> 00:20:44.140
and you cannot solve the problem
in any other way. And then only
00:20:44.140 --> 00:20:49.990
if this is not sufficient you could
resert to a class-based system.
00:20:49.990 --> 00:20:54.140
Transparency – we will see
some big change here
00:20:54.140 --> 00:20:57.850
when it comes to advertised
and real speeds of internet.
00:20:57.850 --> 00:21:00.960
So if this regulation enters into force
and if the transparency provisions
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.140
are applied correctly you will no
longer have just up to a certain
00:21:05.140 --> 00:21:08.910
Megabyte [per second] of internet; instead
you will have a minimum, an average
00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:12.220
and a maximum bandwidth which
has to be stated in the contract. So
00:21:12.220 --> 00:21:17.370
more accurate information
for consumers. Now,
00:21:17.370 --> 00:21:21.140
this is the organization that is now
tasked with making actual sense
00:21:21.140 --> 00:21:26.560
out of this legislation. So this is the
umbrella of all 28 regulatory authorities
00:21:26.560 --> 00:21:31.930
in Europe. Like Bundesnetzagentur
in Germany, or RTR in Austria.
00:21:31.930 --> 00:21:35.870
All those come together under
the umbrella of BEREC; and
00:21:35.870 --> 00:21:39.710
they now have until the end of
august, according to the regulation,
00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:43.630
to come up with actual guidelines
that give this text real meaning.
00:21:43.630 --> 00:21:47.570
And if we look at the timeline this
is basically our work programme
00:21:47.570 --> 00:21:50.920
which we’ll have to fill with life.
00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:54.380
The parliament adopted the
regulation in October; and
00:21:54.380 --> 00:21:58.230
it was published in the journal on
November 26 which gives us the 9 months
00:21:58.230 --> 00:22:03.180
of time we now have. And there
was a stakeholder hearing
00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:07.220
from civil society; I could
participate for EDRI; and
00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:11.210
we basically sat down with the regulators
and gave them our interpretation
00:22:11.210 --> 00:22:14.580
of the text. But just so did also the
content application providers
00:22:14.580 --> 00:22:18.650
like the public broadcasters,
or internet companies;
00:22:18.650 --> 00:22:22.070
and so did the telecom industry. So
now they have to strike a balance
00:22:22.070 --> 00:22:25.520
between those 3 stakeholder groups.
00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:30.800
We’re now at a point where the working
groups are drafting the guidelines.
00:22:30.800 --> 00:22:35.050
Really weird fact: the whole
regulation will enter into force
00:22:35.050 --> 00:22:38.630
at the end of April. Although the
guidelines are not applicable there.
00:22:38.630 --> 00:22:41.220
And nobody could answer the
question what this actually means
00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:46.840
if there would be a case, in this
period between April and August.
00:22:46.840 --> 00:22:50.630
So this working draft will
then be voted in plenary
00:22:50.630 --> 00:22:54.400
at the end of June, and then we’ll
have 20 days of public consultation.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:58.290
You’ll have 20 days to say
what you think about
00:22:58.290 --> 00:23:02.110
the new net neutrality in Europe.
Which is ridiculous. And then they have
00:23:02.110 --> 00:23:06.640
roughly a little bit less than two months
to analyze all this feedback,
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:10.450
and to redraft the guidelines.
So the more feedback they receive
00:23:10.450 --> 00:23:14.810
the fewer time they’ll have to actually
redraft the whole thing before it’s
00:23:14.810 --> 00:23:18.330
finally voted in the extraordinary
plenary within BEREC.
00:23:18.330 --> 00:23:23.500
So that it can be published.
So let’s focus on those 20 days.
00:23:23.500 --> 00:23:28.750
In the US we had several months of
consultation and 4 Mio. comments.
00:23:28.750 --> 00:23:34.370
In India it was 28 days.
Still 1 Mio. comments.
00:23:34.370 --> 00:23:36.970
And they are continuing. They all have
another consultation up and running
00:23:36.970 --> 00:23:41.010
right now. And now in
Europe we have 20 days.
00:23:41.010 --> 00:23:44.330
So this is the comparison that we face.
00:23:44.330 --> 00:23:47.700
And this also means for European
civil society and all those people
00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:51.690
who care about the internet – this is the
time line, and this is the opportunity
00:23:51.690 --> 00:23:56.270
that we have. We can look at the US.
00:23:56.270 --> 00:24:00.660
This is an analysis of the comments
that were given to the FCC
00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:04.390
when they first asked for
opinions about net neutrality.
00:24:04.390 --> 00:24:10.550
And there is now a huge collection
of scientific papers,
00:24:10.550 --> 00:24:14.870
visualizations and everything
about this huge record
00:24:14.870 --> 00:24:18.690
about the topic of net neutrality.
So you can see that there are
00:24:18.690 --> 00:24:22.251
so many issues that – also organically –
that people commented [on].
00:24:22.251 --> 00:24:26.930
You have very few templates in here.
So out of these 4 Mio. comments
00:24:26.930 --> 00:24:31.590
many of them are actually people sitting
down, writing in their own words
00:24:31.590 --> 00:24:35.380
what they think about the subject.
How it would influence their business.
00:24:35.380 --> 00:24:39.371
How it would influence their education.
How it would influence the network
00:24:39.371 --> 00:24:42.960
that they are running. And you
have many interesting stuff like
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.420
“you need net neutrality
for the American Dream”.
00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:51.930
And the idea behind that is also a
“maybe we can take some advice
00:24:51.930 --> 00:24:56.030
from the US, here, for Europe”.
That America is America
00:24:56.030 --> 00:25:00.660
because you can connect to different
opinions. At the core of net neutrality
00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:04.980
you have the equality of the network.
And this was preserved here
00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:09.520
with the new rules in the US; and we
should really take advice on that.
00:25:09.520 --> 00:25:14.270
And that’s also why we as
savetheinternet coalition
00:25:14.270 --> 00:25:17.440
will come up with a new version
of the website. That will
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:20.860
support the consultation and
extend it, not just in the 20 days
00:25:20.860 --> 00:25:25.680
but for a longer time period. So that
more of you have the opportunity
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:29.350
to have an actionable item, to do
something for this legislation.
00:25:29.350 --> 00:25:33.770
And to really have your say.
00:25:33.770 --> 00:25:38.000
In the remaining time I would like
to step a little bit out of Europe
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.970
and follow the motto
of this year’s Congress,
00:25:41.970 --> 00:25:47.600
and look a bit at the global issue.
00:25:47.600 --> 00:25:51.870
You see now there’s… many
legislation are actually discussed
00:25:51.870 --> 00:25:56.321
or already in place. It varies greatly
in the amount of safeguard
00:25:56.321 --> 00:26:02.560
that it provides for citizens. And thanks
to Andre Meister from netzpolitik.org
00:26:02.560 --> 00:26:06.390
we have a little collection of all the
billboards and advertisements
00:26:06.390 --> 00:26:10.770
in Latin America about zero rating.
So let’s have a look how this is
00:26:10.770 --> 00:26:14.520
seen in Peru, in Chile and other
countries. You have here
00:26:14.520 --> 00:26:18.000
free social networking which
is huge advertisement donors.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:23.740
And you have full internet
with this websites.
00:26:23.740 --> 00:26:27.790
And we’re not speaking about nerdy stuff.
This is like a selling proposition,
00:26:27.790 --> 00:26:33.670
that you can have these services for free,
therefor buy my SIMCard, buy my internet.
00:26:33.670 --> 00:26:37.440
And it goes on and on like that. But it
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:42.430
gets really ugly if you look at
what’s happening in India right now.
00:26:42.430 --> 00:26:45.350
Facebook has this program called
internet.org which is basically
00:26:45.350 --> 00:26:50.050
a gated community which gives
poor people without any access
00:26:50.050 --> 00:26:55.210
to the internet just access to
Facebook and a few other sites.
00:26:55.210 --> 00:26:58.650
And Facebook is now on the
offensive. They are asking citizens
00:26:58.650 --> 00:27:03.310
to lobby the regulator
against net neutrality.
00:27:03.310 --> 00:27:06.720
They’re really challenged in that, and
you could see that Facebook was
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.940
fast responding because
the public pressure in India
00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:16.230
amounted to companies, and
telecom actors and also politicians
00:27:16.230 --> 00:27:21.250
publicly denouncing this
program. I can only quote
00:27:21.250 --> 00:27:26.090
one of the founders of
savetheinternet.in, Nikhil Baba.
00:27:26.090 --> 00:27:29.910
He said yesterday that the only question
that he would ask Mark Zuckerberg
00:27:29.910 --> 00:27:35.140
who is always on the forefront
to defend his program:
00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:39.220
“Why is he just giving
these free basic services
00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:42.410
with just a few selected hundred sites
00:27:42.410 --> 00:27:46.350
instead of giving them the whole
access to the internet?”. If you give
00:27:46.350 --> 00:27:50.380
the bandwidth that’s reserved for these
programs just freely to everybody
00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:54.480
so that they can use them in whatever
way they want you would achieve
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.730
exactly the same commercial
interest for the telecom providers.
00:27:58.730 --> 00:28:04.340
And there are similar programs from
Mozilla and also from other Indian ISPs
00:28:04.340 --> 00:28:09.300
that just give people 3 months
of a few megabytes
00:28:09.300 --> 00:28:12.030
to get them hooked on the
internet. If this is just the idea
00:28:12.030 --> 00:28:16.800
to bridge the digital gap by getting
people some sense of our internet
00:28:16.800 --> 00:28:21.390
that could be easily done by that way.
00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:25.230
We have to look at the challenges for
the global net neutrality movement.
00:28:25.230 --> 00:28:30.170
This issue is far from just
a Western debate right now.
00:28:30.170 --> 00:28:34.050
And we always have been wondering in the
Digital Rights movement how it would be
00:28:34.050 --> 00:28:37.930
if Google or Facebook would be
on the other side of our debate.
00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:41.590
If they really would fight against us.
We can look at the global south.
00:28:41.590 --> 00:28:45.030
It’s first happening there. So
00:28:45.030 --> 00:28:49.160
that’s the end of my talk and also
my time. I want to thank you.
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:52.970
I want to urge you to keep fighting;
net neutrality is not lost in Europe.
00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:56.020
It’s more like we now have
a really ambiguous law.
00:28:56.020 --> 00:29:00.820
The responsibility lies now with the
regulators. So we are in a way
00:29:00.820 --> 00:29:05.400
at a point where the US was in 2014. And
now we have to do a similar mobilization.
00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:10.000
We have to do a similar form
of argumentation to get it right.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:15.870
And savetheinternet is
a coalition of 12 NGOs,
00:29:15.870 --> 00:29:20.530
and we don’t have one fixed hub, but
there is a lot of development going on
00:29:20.530 --> 00:29:25.700
in Austria. And we’ll also have a workshop
today at 6 PM at the EDRI assembly
00:29:25.700 --> 00:29:31.471
at Noisy Square. If you want to get
involved, if you have a special interest,
00:29:31.471 --> 00:29:36.650
a business, or are an ISP, then
please participate in this workshop
00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:40.470
to get the new savetheinternet
as best as we can. Thank you!
00:29:40.470 --> 00:29:52.430
applause
00:29:52.430 --> 00:29:55.090
Herald: Okay, we gonna do something
unorthodox today. We gonna have
00:29:55.090 --> 00:29:59.460
the next talk right onto this one.
Please – flying change of people
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:03.460
who wanna come and leave! Because
the two talks are related we’ll have
00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:07.400
Ten minutes of Q&A after the next talk.
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.370
So here’s – das ist jetzt eine
Schwietzer Angelegenheit –
00:30:11.370 --> 00:30:15.320
this is the gentleman from
Switzerland, Fredy Kuenzler!
00:30:15.320 --> 00:30:18.460
Fredy: He speaks Fribourg dialect!
laughter
00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:25.260
Can you believe that? Fribourg –
and pretty good actually!
00:30:25.260 --> 00:30:30.000
Herald: We both agree that buffering
sucks, so please, let me have a hand
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.150
for – Fredy Kuenzler!
applause
00:30:32.150 --> 00:30:40.530
applause
00:30:40.530 --> 00:30:44.910
Fredy Kuenzler: Thank you! My name
is Fredy Kuenzler. Gruetzi mitanand’!
00:30:44.910 --> 00:30:50.620
I was thinking whether to have the
talk in Swiss German or in English…
00:30:50.620 --> 00:30:52.660
Herald: Sorry, excuse me for a moment -
Fredy: Never mind.
00:30:52.660 --> 00:30:57.240
Herald: This is unorthodo… when you
leave, please leave in peace, and quiet.
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:00.520
Okay? And give him a chance.
Fredy: laughs
00:31:00.520 --> 00:31:03.920
So Swiss German would be an option for me.
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:10.510
English, because you know the
Swiss don’t speak proper German.
00:31:10.510 --> 00:31:18.830
My six year old digital native
00:31:18.830 --> 00:31:23.420
is telling people rather proud that his
Dad invented the fastest internet
00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:26.690
in Switzerland. It’s called Fiber7.
00:31:26.690 --> 00:31:31.630
applause
Thank you.
00:31:31.630 --> 00:31:36.280
While we went to Greece for vacation,
I was in a target conflict,
00:31:36.280 --> 00:31:42.370
because I had to explain him
why he couldn’t watch YouTube.
00:31:42.370 --> 00:31:47.200
I mean Greece, you know
it’s maybe a bit difficult,
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.550
but as a matter of fact, here
in Hamburg it’s not any better.
00:31:51.550 --> 00:31:58.020
I’m next door in the hotel InterCity
and they offer “free Wi-Fi”
00:31:58.020 --> 00:32:02.290
with 256 kbit/s.
laughter
00:32:02.290 --> 00:32:07.950
If you want 5 Mbit internet,
you pay 8 Euros extra,
00:32:07.950 --> 00:32:13.690
per day. So this is where we are in 2015.
00:32:13.690 --> 00:32:18.060
A few words about me: I’m
married, one son as I said.
00:32:18.060 --> 00:32:23.640
He was born 2009. He was
able to unlock the iPhone
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.900
with the age of 17 months.
No one showed him how.
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:31.150
laughter and mumbling
00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:35.470
My early connection
with digital techniques
00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:41.980
was about 1978 when I was
playing with these chips 7400.
00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:47.190
Who knows them? Raise
your hand. – Few, thanks.
00:32:47.190 --> 00:32:53.090
Later on I did an apprenticeship as a
Fernmelde- und Elektronikapparatemonteur.
00:32:53.090 --> 00:32:59.500
And I started to do
IT business about 1991.
00:32:59.500 --> 00:33:05.080
Then 1996 – almost 20 years ago –
we started with Linux stuff.
00:33:05.080 --> 00:33:10.800
My first Linux was Suse 4.2.
00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:15.410
In the year 2000 we started with Init7
and later on I became president
00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:20.500
of the SwissIX association.
This is an association
00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:26.040
which runs an Internet Exchange. I had
also my time in a startup called Zattoo.
00:33:26.040 --> 00:33:31.250
It’s a network architecture
OTT IP Television.
00:33:31.250 --> 00:33:36.360
Besides, I need a hobby, so I’m also
a politician for the Social Democrats
00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:41.370
in my city parliament, already 8 years.
00:33:41.370 --> 00:33:45.600
Then I started with the other
hobby, Fiber7 as you know.
00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:50.280
Oh besides, I was also working
in an internet expert group
00:33:50.280 --> 00:33:55.340
of the Social Democrats Switzerland.
There the internet paper
00:33:55.340 --> 00:34:01.140
was adopted earlier this month
00:34:01.140 --> 00:34:06.710
by the national Delegiertenversammlung.
I don’t know what this is in English.
00:34:06.710 --> 00:34:12.690
So, Buffering sucks! Ladies and Gentlemen,
this talk is not about Deutsche Telekom.
00:34:12.690 --> 00:34:18.490
It’s not about peering. It’s not about
interconnection. It’s about these
00:34:18.490 --> 00:34:24.580
thousands and millions of youngsters out
there which want to watch YouTube
00:34:24.580 --> 00:34:28.810
in HD resolution without buffering.
00:34:28.810 --> 00:34:35.389
So let’s quickly look at the reason why
YouTube and all the other video buffer.
00:34:35.389 --> 00:34:40.668
It’s usually lack of bandwidth.
If you have a 2 Meg DSL
00:34:40.668 --> 00:34:47.909
or if you have an InterCity
free Wi-Fi with 250 kilobits;
00:34:47.909 --> 00:34:55.409
so HD video is not possible.
Sometimes they have old PCs,
00:34:55.409 --> 00:34:59.400
so CPU power is an issue –
these days no longer relevant.
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:03.900
Wi-Fi quality sucks sometimes.
This is rather an individual issue.
00:35:03.900 --> 00:35:08.010
And sometimes we have an over-subscription
00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:13.010
of the shared node –
mainly in cable networks.
00:35:13.010 --> 00:35:16.860
Streaming source can be too far
away. If you stream from the U.S.,
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:22.860
it doesn’t really go well.
That’s why we have so many CDN,
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:28.650
Content Delivery Network systems,
close to the end users.
00:35:28.650 --> 00:35:32.290
Then adaptive streaming
can be an advantage,
00:35:32.290 --> 00:35:37.460
but also disadvantage. You cannot
turn it off. When you watch HD
00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:42.190
and the connection sucks
you just cannot keep it on HD.
00:35:42.190 --> 00:35:48.240
It just drops to SD or lower
resolution. It works, yes.
00:35:48.240 --> 00:35:54.250
But Claire Underwood in
low-res is not so cool.
00:35:54.250 --> 00:35:58.810
Routing algorithm issues – sometimes
it’s a mismatch of client and server.
00:35:58.810 --> 00:36:04.340
If your client is assigned to the
wrong CDN server, then it’s also slow.
00:36:04.340 --> 00:36:08.340
Anycast routing is a trick sometimes.
And, last but not least
00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:15.270
and the most important thing:
It’s over-subscribed interconnections.
00:36:15.270 --> 00:36:20.020
We go back quickly to the
old days. The caller pays.
00:36:20.020 --> 00:36:25.089
When you call your mother-in-law
and you talk with her
00:36:25.089 --> 00:36:30.900
– well, she talks to you for 45 minutes
and you say hello and goodbye –
00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:36.550
you still pay the call.
laughter
00:36:36.550 --> 00:36:41.470
So with YouTube it’s not any different.
00:36:41.470 --> 00:36:47.070
You click YouTube and then YouTube
talks to you for hours maybe
00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:52.340
and then you say goodbye, basically.
So is the broadband customer
00:36:52.340 --> 00:36:57.270
calling the YouTube server or is it vice
versa? Is the YouTube server calling
00:36:57.270 --> 00:37:03.630
the broadband customer? Probably
it’s the broadband customer who calls.
00:37:03.630 --> 00:37:08.930
But still the data is flowing
from the server to the client.
00:37:08.930 --> 00:37:13.970
But the client is causing the traffic,
because he is requesting the traffic.
00:37:13.970 --> 00:37:22.670
And if we look at the structure of
the internet, we have basically…
00:37:22.670 --> 00:37:28.200
(doesn’t work here, red
button is dead, never mind!)
00:37:28.200 --> 00:37:31.770
…we have the end user to the right.
00:37:31.770 --> 00:37:35.130
We have – here is the provider network
00:37:35.130 --> 00:37:41.130
and the end user is only connected
to the provider’s network.
00:37:41.130 --> 00:37:46.250
On the left side we have all the content
in the internet. We have the media
00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:52.220
and video and streaming
and Torrent and… you name it.
00:37:52.220 --> 00:37:59.870
But there is always only one
way going to the end user.
00:37:59.870 --> 00:38:08.620
It’s the yellow marked interconnection
points and there is no way around them.
00:38:08.620 --> 00:38:17.000
This basically means, the provider
can monopolize the end customer.
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:22.560
At least as long [as] he is
connected or subscribed.
00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:26.100
There is no alternative way.
00:38:26.100 --> 00:38:31.210
So this gives the provider
00:38:31.210 --> 00:38:34.720
a position of power.
00:38:34.720 --> 00:38:38.120
On the other hand these
interconnection points used to be
00:38:38.120 --> 00:38:44.040
– for a long period of time – so called
Zero Settlement interconnections,
00:38:44.040 --> 00:38:47.930
and they are basically the
foundation of the internet.
00:38:47.930 --> 00:38:51.630
Without Zero Settlement peering,
without interconnection
00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:56.160
the internet wouldn’t exist as we know it.
00:38:56.160 --> 00:39:00.430
The broadband provider,
mainly the incumbent,
00:39:00.430 --> 00:39:03.910
the ex-monopolist,
or large cable operators,
00:39:03.910 --> 00:39:07.240
they tend to become more
and more restrictive
00:39:07.240 --> 00:39:12.210
to provide sufficient
interconnection capacity.
00:39:12.210 --> 00:39:16.330
Not upgrading interconnection
to the requirements
00:39:16.330 --> 00:39:23.590
is very common these days and
it’s a passive aggressive behaviour.
00:39:23.590 --> 00:39:31.080
So many providers – to name
a few: Deutsche Telekom –
00:39:31.080 --> 00:39:34.040
they just do nothing. They just wait.
00:39:34.040 --> 00:39:38.480
And the end customers are suffering.
Buffering is very common, especially
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:43.950
during prime-time.
This is basically what the topic of…
00:39:43.950 --> 00:39:48.620
…the main topic of this conference is:
It’s a gated community. The provider
00:39:48.620 --> 00:39:57.010
creates a gated community
for his own end customers.
00:39:57.010 --> 00:40:01.140
So as I said before:
00:40:01.140 --> 00:40:05.520
The data is flowing from the server,
from the video server to the end customer.
00:40:05.520 --> 00:40:09.660
It’s about 50 times more
traffic flowing to the client
00:40:09.660 --> 00:40:15.740
and the usual traffic ratio we have
00:40:15.740 --> 00:40:20.580
for a broadband provider is 1:5
or 1:10. So they’re pulling about
00:40:20.580 --> 00:40:26.060
10 times more traffic
towards the end customer.
00:40:26.060 --> 00:40:32.290
Then we have this interconnection
policy. So they don’t do anything.
00:40:32.290 --> 00:40:37.360
As I said before, they just over-subscribe
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:43.010
the existing interconnection.
And if you want to upgrade you have to
00:40:43.010 --> 00:40:48.010
have a traffic ratio of
about 1:1.5 to 1.3.
00:40:48.010 --> 00:40:53.760
But no video stream service
can deliver traffic
00:40:53.760 --> 00:41:00.000
and also maintain the traffic ratio.
No content provider can.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.290
So all they can do is: They can
pay money to get upgraded.
00:41:04.290 --> 00:41:08.810
And if they don’t pay,
data is stuck in congestion
00:41:08.810 --> 00:41:18.530
and their clients are suffering,
seeing the buffering sign.
00:41:18.530 --> 00:41:22.810
Large broadband providers, such as
the incumbents and cable providers,
00:41:22.810 --> 00:41:28.860
they want to get paid twice.
They are able to force the money
00:41:28.860 --> 00:41:32.980
due to the temporary
monopoly – as I explained.
00:41:32.980 --> 00:41:36.860
And they can ask money from the end
customer and on the other hand
00:41:36.860 --> 00:41:40.450
also from the content.
00:41:40.450 --> 00:41:44.190
This is called double-sided market.
And if they don’t pay,
00:41:44.190 --> 00:41:49.750
the content is not paying, this is what we
see. And sometimes – as a side note –
00:41:49.750 --> 00:41:55.470
the end customer pays,
but still sees this.
00:41:55.470 --> 00:41:59.540
But IP interconnection would be cheap.
00:41:59.540 --> 00:42:04.030
The business cost per broadband
customer is just a few cents per month.
00:42:04.030 --> 00:42:10.220
And if the provider would invest
this, people would be happy.
00:42:10.220 --> 00:42:17.170
On top content providers are easy to deal
for peering or provide cache servers etc.
00:42:17.170 --> 00:42:23.620
So please talk to our community
fellows of Akamai, Apple,
00:42:23.620 --> 00:42:28.800
Amazon, Facebook, Google,
Limelight, Netflix.
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:36.110
T is not Telekom, it’s Twitch.
And Zattoo, and a lot of others.
00:42:36.110 --> 00:42:40.280
So traffic congestion is costly.
00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:45.280
I took a random Google
search and was looking for
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:51.270
how much traffic is actually costing.
And “Die Welt” showed the result:
00:42:51.270 --> 00:42:59.780
“Staus kosten in jedem
Haushalt 509€/Jahr”.
00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:05.310
So my assumption was:
If traffic jam is costing money,
00:43:05.310 --> 00:43:09.120
then probably data traffic jam
is also costing some money.
00:43:09.120 --> 00:43:19.140
But I figured that no one was
really exploring that field, yet.
00:43:19.140 --> 00:43:22.960
So I thought I’m going to do
a little “Milchbüechlirächnig”
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:26.430
laughter
00:43:26.430 --> 00:43:31.530
applause
00:43:31.530 --> 00:43:37.600
When I was a child, the milk man came
every morning and we just put our order
00:43:37.600 --> 00:43:43.330
into the Milchbüechli and he put the milk
into the box outside of the house.
00:43:43.330 --> 00:43:51.130
By the end of the month, we went to the
shop and paid our Milchbüechlirächnig.
00:43:51.130 --> 00:43:55.210
So this is my quick calculation: We have
about 30 million broadband connections
00:43:55.210 --> 00:44:03.150
in Germany. I assume that everybody is
waiting for one minute accumulated
00:44:03.150 --> 00:44:07.360
while watching Netflix, YouTube,
whatever. Probably this is far too less.
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:13.030
Who thinks one minute is fine, or –
who thinks one minute is not enough?
00:44:13.030 --> 00:44:18.700
Oh, ok, so let’s stick with one
minute for the calculation.
00:44:18.700 --> 00:44:23.150
And I also assumed that 5€ / hour waiting
00:44:23.150 --> 00:44:30.490
is a good salary. So if you
think, 5€ is not enough,
00:44:30.490 --> 00:44:35.300
you can adapt the calculation.
This is called “Reservationslohn”.
00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:39.850
I have no clue what it means,
but this was on Wikipedia,
00:44:39.850 --> 00:44:43.750
for time when you take
a job or refuse a job,
00:44:43.750 --> 00:44:48.900
how much would be the
value for the spare time.
00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:54.540
So this is my calculation: If you wait one
minute per day, this is 6 hours per year.
00:44:54.540 --> 00:44:58.770
If you multiply this with the 5€,
00:44:58.770 --> 00:45:09.520
every broadband customer
would lose 30€ per year.
00:45:09.520 --> 00:45:14.950
This sums up
– with 30 million broadband subscribers -
00:45:14.950 --> 00:45:24.130
to 900 million Euros per year. This is the
economic damage in Germany per year.
00:45:24.130 --> 00:45:30.810
applause
00:45:30.810 --> 00:45:36.030
As we can assume that a large
part of the buffering is caused
00:45:36.030 --> 00:45:39.480
by the insufficient interconnection,
especially during prime-time
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:44.230
when everybody wants to watch
Netflix. This is also a result
00:45:44.230 --> 00:45:51.240
of the restrictive peering policy of the
incumbent and large cable operators
00:45:51.240 --> 00:45:55.440
and the ability for them to
force some extra money
00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:59.560
out of these double sided
market power as I explained.
00:45:59.560 --> 00:46:03.800
They probably would gain a few
millions. I don’t have exact figures
00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:09.110
but I assume it’s probably
some 10..20..30 millions per year,
00:46:09.110 --> 00:46:15.530
they could force through
this market power.
00:46:15.530 --> 00:46:19.930
On the other hand we have the damage
of 900 Million Euro per year and I mean
00:46:19.930 --> 00:46:27.550
this is like a – how do you
say that? – Imbalance.
00:46:27.550 --> 00:46:32.200
So my conclusion in democratic
countries like [in] Western Europe:
00:46:32.200 --> 00:46:36.320
The economic gain of a multibillion
company at the expense
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:42.460
of the general public is
commonly not tolerated.
00:46:42.460 --> 00:46:47.940
The next question is basically following
the previous talk of Thomas:
00:46:47.940 --> 00:46:52.590
When will the regulators wake up
and force every market participant
00:46:52.590 --> 00:46:58.080
to cooperative peering and interconnection
because the end user is suffering,
00:46:58.080 --> 00:47:01.930
the public is suffering.
Zero Settlement peering – as I explained -
00:47:01.930 --> 00:47:06.770
is rather common.
Of course the incumbent,
00:47:06.770 --> 00:47:11.550
the Deutsche Telekom lobbyists
would tell otherwise, this is clear.
00:47:11.550 --> 00:47:16.290
The unbalanced traffic should no
longer be used to refuse peering;
00:47:16.290 --> 00:47:20.730
and also disputes about the
interconnection should be resolved
00:47:20.730 --> 00:47:28.300
rather quick. My case against
Swisscom is taking years already
00:47:28.300 --> 00:47:31.840
and still no end… no light
at the end of the tunnel.
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:37.250
Then, last but not least we should
have broadband providers…
00:47:37.250 --> 00:47:48.490
must be committed to the interests
of their own end user customer base.
00:47:48.490 --> 00:47:54.510
As I said, Telekom managed to get paid
twice because of their market power;
00:47:54.510 --> 00:47:59.040
and other Telecoms, such as
Telecom Hungaria or Swisscom,
00:47:59.040 --> 00:48:04.590
they use Deutsche Telekom and
their market power as a leverage
00:48:04.590 --> 00:48:09.060
to force their also
restrictive peering policy;
00:48:09.060 --> 00:48:12.820
and the regulators so far don’t do
much. I quote here Marc Furrer,
00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:18.010
this is the chief of ComCom Switzerland:
“Nur ein fauler Regulator
00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:21.740
ist ein guter Regulator”.
laughing
00:48:21.740 --> 00:48:31.710
Thank you! Questions?
applause
00:48:31.710 --> 00:48:37.280
Herald: Okay, thank you Fredy; and
let’s have Thomas back up on stage
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:40.850
and we’re gonna take questions, please.
00:48:40.850 --> 00:48:44.470
There is actually more than the
[number of] mics I said before,
00:48:44.470 --> 00:48:49.490
there is two right up on the top
and there is three in each aisle.
00:48:49.490 --> 00:48:53.840
So if you please line up if you have
any questions to ask; and please
00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:58.250
speak into the mic, we need
your questions on tape,
00:48:58.250 --> 00:49:03.120
and those who are leaving
now: Do it silently please.
00:49:03.120 --> 00:49:10.300
Okay, first question, over there!
00:49:10.300 --> 00:49:14.940
Question: I have a question for
Thomas: From your talk it sounds
00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:18.600
like you did a lot of work. Can you
tell us a little bit about the budgeting,
00:49:18.600 --> 00:49:22.200
that goes into having a team like that?
00:49:22.200 --> 00:49:27.410
T: Yeah, so, SaveTheInternet
is a coalition of 12 NGOs
00:49:27.410 --> 00:49:31.910
which have all their independent
budget. There is no fixed budget
00:49:31.910 --> 00:49:35.940
for the work that we have
been doing as a whole.
00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:39.711
All of them have transparency
reports. So I can not really speak
00:49:39.711 --> 00:49:46.850
for the budget of EDRI or accessnow. The
organization where I am based in Austria
00:49:46.850 --> 00:49:52.230
got a grant from the media democracy
foundation from 10.000€;
00:49:52.230 --> 00:49:57.370
and money from Netflix, 10.000€ also.
00:49:57.370 --> 00:50:00.701
And we used both for development
and paying for the faxes. Because
00:50:00.701 --> 00:50:04.940
in the second round of the fax tool
the provider that it was referring to
00:50:04.940 --> 00:50:08.210
was no longer paying.
00:50:08.210 --> 00:50:13.780
Otherwise the funding in general about
Digital Rights in Europe is awfully low.
00:50:13.780 --> 00:50:18.470
So if you compare it to the U.S.
where you had double-digit millions
00:50:18.470 --> 00:50:23.619
going into the lobbying it is
ridiculous what resources we have
00:50:23.619 --> 00:50:28.800
here in Europe; and we are thinking
about making a donation tool
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:33.070
for the new SaveTheInternet;
but again, that’s complicated
00:50:33.070 --> 00:50:37.740
because you have 12 NGOs with
very different activity scales.
00:50:37.740 --> 00:50:41.280
Like some of them do a lot, others
not so much. So how would you divide
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:45.180
the money? These are unresolved questions,
that we are working on right now.
00:50:45.180 --> 00:50:48.700
If you wanna support us with independent
funding, then just donate to
00:50:48.700 --> 00:50:55.480
the individual organizations.
EDRI, Initiative für Netzfreiheit,
00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:58.890
are probably the ones I would mention
most, because they have done
00:50:58.890 --> 00:51:02.540
most of the work; accessnow as well,
but they generally have a lot of funding
00:51:02.540 --> 00:51:04.700
from the U.S., so I don’t think
they need it that much.
00:51:04.700 --> 00:51:08.282
Q: But to summarize, I saw a picture of
your team. I saw all the work you did.
00:51:08.282 --> 00:51:13.650
You did that for 20.000€?
T: No. I never got a Cent.
00:51:13.650 --> 00:51:17.310
I was paid by EDRI for 4 months
when I was working in Brussels
00:51:17.310 --> 00:51:20.880
within BEREC for the first reading;
but otherwise this was mostly free time.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:25.770
I got my expenses covered for travel
but other than that I am doing this
00:51:25.770 --> 00:51:36.530
in my spare time. Also now I’m employed…
applause
00:51:36.530 --> 00:51:39.410
…I work for Data Protection NGOs,
so they are allowing me to do
00:51:39.410 --> 00:51:43.260
a lot of my stuff also for Net Neutrality.
00:51:43.260 --> 00:51:48.690
Herald: We’re all elephants. We do it
for peanuts. Okay, No.1 go ahead!
00:51:48.690 --> 00:51:55.200
Mic 1: Yeah, hello! Hi Thomas, thanks
a lot for your work, that’s great.
00:51:55.200 --> 00:51:59.450
I have a question about the involvement
of the business, the angels
00:51:59.450 --> 00:52:03.200
and the companies: What is the
reason, what do you think
00:52:03.200 --> 00:52:08.660
why they came so late into
this discussion in Germany.
00:52:08.660 --> 00:52:12.800
What probably can we do to change
this in the future because
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:17.630
I think that’s a… they
are great allies in this fight.
00:52:17.630 --> 00:52:21.430
Thomas: That’s… you’re asking
exactly the right question.
00:52:21.430 --> 00:52:25.810
Sadly, in Europe you have no
organized voice for startups
00:52:25.810 --> 00:52:30.250
or for SMEs when it comes
to Digital Rights issues;
00:52:30.250 --> 00:52:33.740
and you would have to work with them
to get them involved in the debate.
00:52:33.740 --> 00:52:37.480
They were really late to the party
and then, again, mostly activated
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:44.230
through U.S. networks. So the connection
between the civil rights scene here
00:52:44.230 --> 00:52:48.920
and the business scene, particularly the
one which is organized in Brussels
00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:53.619
with European umbrellas is very weak.
So everything you can do there
00:52:53.619 --> 00:52:57.850
to strengthen this connection
would be great.
00:52:57.850 --> 00:53:00.940
But I don’t have those business
contacts. I got a few people involved
00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:04.360
in the first reading stuff but we’ll
definitely need more people that
00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:08.840
act as multipliers to get more
companies involved, particularly now
00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:13.280
when we enter into a new phase
with the BEREC guidelines.
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:17.530
We no longer need the loud arguments of…
00:53:17.530 --> 00:53:21.830
…of many people, we need more the
arguments from the business side,
00:53:21.830 --> 00:53:26.190
from the universities, from those people
who run networks. These arguments are
00:53:26.190 --> 00:53:29.610
better suited to make
a difference with the regulators.
00:53:29.610 --> 00:53:35.990
Fredy: And to add: Don’t underestimate
the influence of the lobbies,
00:53:35.990 --> 00:53:40.680
of the big names, the Telecoms
and the liberty globals…
00:53:40.680 --> 00:53:46.190
They have a lot of money and they
try to influence the politicians
00:53:46.190 --> 00:53:51.490
as good as they can. They do
a good job from their perspective.
00:53:51.490 --> 00:53:57.760
Thomas: You can be sure that the Telecoms
will have people for all 28 regulators,
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:01.520
now continuously lobbying for an
upcoming 9 months. The question is:
00:54:01.520 --> 00:54:05.610
Who is in our team?
00:54:05.610 --> 00:54:11.230
Herald: OK. Thank you. Is there a question
from the internet? While we’re at it?
00:54:11.230 --> 00:54:16.250
Signal Angel: Yes, there is a question,
it is: Whether peering providers
00:54:16.250 --> 00:54:19.440
should differentiate between
virtual private network traffic
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:23.010
and public traffic; and where is the line
00:54:23.010 --> 00:54:30.730
between internal network
and the public internet?
00:54:30.730 --> 00:54:36.560
Fredy: What should I say… this is
difficult question, I mean… Basically,
00:54:36.560 --> 00:54:43.350
if you over-commit your backbone
then there is always plenty of traffic…
00:54:43.350 --> 00:54:49.710
or plenty of capacity. So there is…
there shouldn’t be any differentiation.
00:54:49.710 --> 00:54:56.710
Networks should provide enough
capacity and then we’re good.
00:54:56.710 --> 00:55:00.700
A common argument from the big names:
00:55:00.700 --> 00:55:06.730
“Oh we are investing millions and millions
and millions in broadband expansion”,
00:55:06.730 --> 00:55:12.350
but unfortunately they stop investing
right at the end of their own backbone
00:55:12.350 --> 00:55:17.420
so they don’t invest any money
beyond their little percentage
00:55:17.420 --> 00:55:24.240
of the total investment
for their interconnections.
00:55:24.240 --> 00:55:28.730
Herald: Okay, there is
another question at No.1?
00:55:28.730 --> 00:55:33.220
Mic 1: I have a question about buffering:
So the most of the content in the web is
00:55:33.220 --> 00:55:38.140
delivered over TCP/IP and…
will changing the media
00:55:38.140 --> 00:55:43.450
to something like UDP which has
lower overhead over TCP/IP;
00:55:43.450 --> 00:55:47.020
will that change the situation?
00:55:47.020 --> 00:55:48.400
Fredy: Not really.
Mic 1: No?
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:53.960
Fredy: No. It won’t help. I mean
packet loss is packet loss
00:55:53.960 --> 00:56:01.530
regardless whether it’s TCP or it’s UDP.
00:56:01.530 --> 00:56:07.220
Herald: OK, that was a short answer. Next
question please. Please talk into the mic.
00:56:07.220 --> 00:56:10.630
Mic: So when I came here, this
year, I had the impression that
00:56:10.630 --> 00:56:15.030
at digital subscriber line connections
00:56:15.030 --> 00:56:19.630
not only bandwidth is bad but also the
00:56:19.630 --> 00:56:23.900
ping [time] gets up way high.
Of course, I mean,
00:56:23.900 --> 00:56:28.250
at home I have Fiber7 nowadays
so I just thought I got spoiled
00:56:28.250 --> 00:56:33.380
by fiber connections but I noticed
that ping times went up
00:56:33.380 --> 00:56:38.490
from, well, couple of years ago 60-80 ms
00:56:38.490 --> 00:56:42.490
from sites in your neighborhood
more or less
00:56:42.490 --> 00:56:48.620
to nowadays 80-160ms.
Where is the problem there?
00:56:48.620 --> 00:56:52.310
Fredy: Well, the latency
is directly related
00:56:52.310 --> 00:56:56.160
if the provider is not delivering
enough bandwidth,
00:56:56.160 --> 00:57:03.210
then ping goes up that’s
a normal behaviour of TCP.
00:57:03.210 --> 00:57:08.240
Mic: So the problem is also
at the interconnection sites?
00:57:08.240 --> 00:57:13.360
Fredy: Probably yes, most likely,
you can find out if you do traceroute.
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:19.220
Then you see where… well,
there is a long presentation
00:57:19.220 --> 00:57:24.660
how to interpret traceroute properly.
If you look for “Nanog traceroute”
00:57:24.660 --> 00:57:31.470
you should find this lecture. But that
would probably give some indication.
00:57:31.470 --> 00:57:35.180
Mic: Alright, thank you.
Herald: Thank you. Next question from
00:57:35.180 --> 00:57:39.070
the internet, just in between and
then we’ll go back, go ahead.
00:57:39.070 --> 00:57:43.220
Signal Angel: “Is Netflix a gated
community by itself?” and
00:57:43.220 --> 00:57:46.520
“Are you sure that their interest
will align with the movement
00:57:46.520 --> 00:57:52.050
of net neutrality in the long run?”
00:57:52.050 --> 00:57:56.590
Fredy: We should differentiate
between Netflix content
00:57:56.590 --> 00:58:02.180
and Netflix interconnections. So for
the content I probably would say:
00:58:02.180 --> 00:58:07.540
Yes. But I am not the expert. This would
be then layer 7 in the OSI model.
00:58:07.540 --> 00:58:11.840
I am talking here on layer 3,
this is content agnostic.
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:17.070
Netflix, they are one of the good
guys because they really help
00:58:17.070 --> 00:58:24.170
to deliver the packets. I know
them personally a few fellows
00:58:24.170 --> 00:58:30.000
from the peering community.
They are the good guys, definitely.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:33.390
Thomas: Just also to answer this
question for the European debate,
00:58:33.390 --> 00:58:37.400
Netflix was one of the good guys in the
U.S. and they also supported of course
00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:41.119
the European movement. But again, they are
so big that I wouldn’t really trust them
00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:45.410
as an ally because they could
also pay, they could also survive
00:58:45.410 --> 00:58:50.900
in a double sided market and for them
in the growing emerging markets
00:58:50.900 --> 00:58:55.869
like Europe where they just have started
it’s probably risky to allow for this
00:58:55.869 --> 00:59:02.030
new type of anti net neutrality business
models; but in the consumer side
00:59:02.030 --> 00:59:06.530
where net neutrality is seen as an end
user issue I think so far their interests
00:59:06.530 --> 00:59:10.960
mostly align. On interconnection they
have their own interests, of course.
00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:14.820
Fredy: So I can say: Netflix is
definitely paying Deutsche Telekom,
00:59:14.820 --> 00:59:18.790
otherwise no single Deutsche Telekom user
00:59:18.790 --> 00:59:24.050
would be able to watch any
movie on Netflix! So! For sure!
00:59:24.050 --> 00:59:27.220
Herald: Okay, we are short for
time so please, last 2 questions.
00:59:27.220 --> 00:59:31.001
One, no.2 first. Keep it short,
please. Talk into the mic.
00:59:31.001 --> 00:59:35.800
Mic 2: Regarding the first talk: What
is the… do you have an explanation for
00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:41.600
the behaviour of the European Commission
in behave of the net neutrality debate?
00:59:41.600 --> 00:59:45.560
I especially think of the behaviour
of Guenther Oettinger
00:59:45.560 --> 00:59:51.780
who repeatedly said his ridiculous lie
00:59:51.780 --> 00:59:57.340
of “net neutrality kills” and
he repeated it again and again
00:59:57.340 --> 01:00:03.920
even if there was no reason
behind it. And do you
01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:08.560
have an explanation for this behavior
of the Commission, and Juncker and this?
01:00:08.560 --> 01:00:12.090
Thomas: For that argument, we had this
great YouTube video “net neutrality kills”.
01:00:12.090 --> 01:00:16.040
If you search it you will find it or
“Netzneutralität tötet” in German.
01:00:16.040 --> 01:00:19.820
That deconstructs this argument of
Oettinger. But in general, and you can
01:00:19.820 --> 01:00:23.910
go back to the previous commissioner
Neelie Kroes that I showed.
01:00:23.910 --> 01:00:26.930
Our sole suspicion is that the deal
was that the telecom industry
01:00:26.930 --> 01:00:30.200
has to give up a little bit of their
profits when it comes to Roaming,
01:00:30.200 --> 01:00:33.940
but on the other side they gain a lot
of future profits on the abolishment
01:00:33.940 --> 01:00:37.480
of net neutrality. And so it was like:
“Okay, we need a populist argument”,
01:00:37.480 --> 01:00:41.860
Neelie Kroes also needs a quick
win at the end of her career.
01:00:41.860 --> 01:00:46.960
And this was again like you take
a little bit there and put it there
01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:51.560
for the Telecoms industry. And Oettinger
is a big industrial favour guy,
01:00:51.560 --> 01:00:54.930
he is always for big business.
01:00:54.930 --> 01:00:58.560
Herald: Okay, short for time,
last question, No.1.
01:00:58.560 --> 01:01:03.130
Mic 1: Hi, so what strategy should an ISP
use when their capacity on their backbones
01:01:03.130 --> 01:01:09.270
is fully loaded? Like first-in-first-out
or what is your idea about that, because
01:01:09.270 --> 01:01:13.190
the capacity is limited, so when there is
so much traffic that everything is stuck.
01:01:13.190 --> 01:01:15.380
Fredy: Upgrade!
Thomas: Yes, invest in the network!
01:01:15.380 --> 01:01:21.580
Fredy: I mean, sorry, a 10G port is now
some 3000€ including optic and cross
01:01:21.580 --> 01:01:27.290
connect. It’s not that much. Upgrade!
01:01:27.290 --> 01:01:30.240
Herald: Okay, thank you!
Let’s have a hand!
01:01:30.240 --> 01:01:32.420
applause
01:01:32.420 --> 01:01:38.250
Fredy Kuenzler, Thomas Lohninger.
Thank you very much! And goodbye.
01:01:38.250 --> 01:01:43.920
postroll music
01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:49.261
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