Why we get from insulin resistance

In today's interview I get to speak with associate professor doctor and bitmap about how insulin resistance make a Sikh causing more than just diabetics he is also back to answer some of your commonly asked questions

[Music]

hello everyone and welcome to biohackers

lab I'm your host Gary Cohen and on

today's episode I have dr. Ben Beckman

dr. Pikmin is an associate professor at

BYU who conducts research in the

laboratory of obesity and metabolism

he has also authored the new book coming

out in July 2020 called why we get sick

and so good to have you back on again

hey Gary yeah my pleasure it was so much

fun the last time doing it again was

inevitable yeah and I mean I I did that
little introduction

about you there but

hopefully everyone knows about you

because you are the most viewed speaker

on the biohackers lab channel on the

youtubes so you just everyday there's

home does the people that just hit that

video and they just want to know more

about dr. Ben Beckman and what he's

thoughts awesome so I'm glad

to have you on again
oh that's fun I guess I guess

people are just something about a shiny

bald head that just people just can't

can't stay away well don't worry this

since views not about shiny bald heads

yeah although although all the worse for

it it ought to be so I'm gonna my first

question for you then is your book why

we get sick why is it that we get sick

name what's what's the answer to it yeah

yeah well thanks thanks for asking

thanks for mentioning it this has it was

a labor of love really so I let me just

do a low background I ended up my

University every summer does this event

called Education Week where they just

have experts from the community and

including the university able to teach a

week of a class whatever the topic is

and there's all kinds of topics so about

five years ago I decided to just take

some of the the most distilled sort of

purist points about insulin resistance

that I've ever taught in my class as a

professor and and really just tried to

present this to the public in a

non-academic setting which is and this

became the the essence of the book what

is insulin

why does it matter and that touches on

the why we get sick and we can get into

that and then what to do about it so

sort of three parts and in the over the

course of that week five years ago it

not only was very well received but so

many people said can where can we get

your book where can we get your book and

I thought maybe I ought to just write a

book and it was a wonderful opportunity

and challenge to bring it all in to you

know a very lucid compilation of

thoughts and scientific references so

why we get sick I contend that much of

chronic disease non-infectious of course

is in some way connected to insulin

resistance is one single one single

problem so you imagine this sort of this

this tree of illness and all these

different disorders that we focus on by

looking at the branches we're looking at

hypertension we're looking at

infertility we're looking at dementia

and migraines in some instances and we

would want to conventional medicine

would have us just treating each of

those separate disorders individually

and yet when we can acknowledge that

there is to varying degrees a connection

with one single disorder with insulin

resistance then we can just address the

insulin resistance so start taking care

of all of the seemingly distinct

disorders it's so it's a way to reframe

our perspective with regards to modern

disease so it's you really can almost

just throw a dart at a dartboard of

illness in whichever one it hits

erectile dysfunction yep that's one of

the earliest signs of insulin resistance

in many men I've mentioned infertility

so polycystic ovarian syndrome and women

that is at its core a disease of too

much insulin which happens with insulin

resistance coming to the ovaries and

inhibiting the ovaries ability to make

estrogens hypertension I'd mentioned is

almost always somehow connected insulin

resistance and and many many other

disorders and so is that why then

lifestyle intervention so the what you

eat is such a major part of improving

your health yeah that's right that is

one of the things I hope people take

away from that overall message if

someone can appreciate that insulin

resistance is a key driver of most

diseases then they can lean in to the

fact that lifestyle changes really make

a powerful change in insulin resistance

where there are papers published showing

that people who are
on anti-diabetic medications because

their insulin resistance is

so bad they have to drop

their medications just within just

within a matter of a couple weeks the

insulin sensitivity gets so better so

much better so quickly yeah and
I guess that is the

key thing I'm hearing here

too is that you know most of time we

just think if I have an instant problem

I'm gonna have a diabetes problem but

what you're saying here is if you have

an instant problem it's not just

diabetes you could actually come up with

one of these other conditions before you

get classified as diabetic or if you

even get classified as diabetic

it's right and that is a big if I am most

based on just normal statistics that we

have available the prevalence of insulin

resistance versus type 2
diabetes it is obvious that

most people with insulin resistance

will not progress all the way

to type 2 diabetes all the more reason

to not look at insulin resistance as

just a diabetic progression look at it as

a progression to multiple diseases

and we can focus on it outside the
context of diabeties

you know for example

focusing on it in the context of heart

disease which is such a main killer even

focusing on it in the context of certain

cancers like breast and prostate cancers

well which appear to be very affected by

the insulin resistance status of the

individual so yeah if we can remove

insulin resistance from just the world

of diabetes then we can I would argue

start to look earlier in the progression

of all you know all the other disorders

that insulin resistance is connected to

and in your book do you go again into

the detail of how

lay person can try work with their

physician to understand do they have

insulin resistance oh yeah yeah

absolutely so I mentioned a few tests in

the book and give details with regards

to the utility of measuring fasting

insulin itself which is very rarely done

but does have some utility although it's

not perfect and then the best of all

measuring insulin when possible in the

context of a glucose challenge so if the

person drinks glucose and if they can

just have a couple blood samples and

measure insulin from those blood samples

at a couple time points then they're

really they're really getting some

predictive value yeah and I think I saw

a tweet from dr. an and she showed how

someone had a normal glucose level but

if what if he measured the insulin they

actually had a massive insulin spike but

so they would have just measured their

glucose they would have looked normal

but the insulin response didn't look

normal

that's right yep and that is so often

just if there's any if there's any one

message I hope anyone ever takes away

from hearing me talk in any venue it is

the the need to look at insulin that we

just can't continue to of course in the

context of diabetes we always look at

glucose that is in fact how we define

the disease and I think that's

unfortunate but we need to shift the

focus to insulin not only for the sake

of earlier and better treatment and

diagnosis for diabetes but for many

other disorders as well yeah and it

sounds like here you could do the oral

glucose tolerance test not just to say

you're diabetic but actually if you have

an illness as you mentioned one of these

other conditions you could add in the

validation with a with this test to show

actually I need a major lifestyle

intervention because my hypertension my

high blood pressure I've got a big

problem here I can see it through this

day yeah yep that's right and so when

the person and hypertension is so common

rather than give them an

antihypertensive medication that's

blocking other hormones or trying to

push the the water from the kidneys just

then say alright let's lower your

insulin and then the healthcare

practitioner would know when we lower

insulin we can lower aldosterone which

is the hormone that's telling the

kidneys to hold on to all the water and

the salt then rather than take a drug

that will block what aldosterone is

trying to do

which there is just lower aldosterone on

its own by allowing insulin to come down

and now you're resolving the

hypertension so that one's a very strong

connection in particular yeah and I mean

these are I'm just thinking of common

conditions so that everyone's probably

heard of and high blood pressures is a

simple thing that I think a lot of

people have had kidney health too I mean

people do suffer chronic kidney disease

is insulin related to kidney Hill yeah

so insulin does change how kidneys

handle urea for example if an insulin

resistance the kidneys release less urea

into the urine and thus the body is

holding on to it and that of course

becomes part of the that's an early form

of what will become uric acid although

that gets us into a different disorder

but yeah the kidneys are influenced not

only by urea handling with insulin

resistance but also the pH an insulin

resistance the pH of the urine changed

just and actually increases the risk of

stone formation which may I hope I never

get that's by all accounts is the most

you know painful thing you can have

happen interesting so if someone suffers

kidney stones then it could it could be

here that that is one of those disorders

where I'm not at all attempting to say

it's only insulin resistance no there

could be many other variables but that

is one yeah but yeah as a simplicity

test it sounds like again oral glucose

tolerance test with and with added

insulin testing is so good as a baseline

not only for diabetes but just all these

other types of conditions you know yeah

like for example Alzheimer's disease

that is one of those diseases that

really terrifies me and the the evidence

suggesting that insulin resistance is an

early indicator and and that is altering

the way the brain accesses glucose and

so there's this very early detectable

change in brain glucose use in people

before they have any diagnosed

Alzheimer's disease that later becomes

Alzheimer's hmm and I think I like that

because Alzheimer's and I'm guessing

even age-related dementia just basic

brain health

if you want to see how well your brain

is aging you could see how well do you

have insulin resistance so as you're

aging if brain health is a important

factor for you

which I think most people is doing a

basic weight test to see if you got

insulin resistance is another key signal

to say yeah your brain is is a is only a

good part as we age yeah yeah so there

was a study that found that for every I

think it was of every 10 years someone

had type 2 diabetes which as we know is

at its core insulin resistance the brain

was 2 years older than it should have

been compared to the you know the same

age person without the disease so this

insulin resistance state is prematurely

aging the brain or it's accelerating the

aging yeah yeah and I get you know I

could think of other neurology I mean

the brain is one mass but could be so

many other things so that it gives me

thinking cause we're gonna move on into

diet stuff here now which everyone loves

because they can this action what they

can do it yeah and we're speaking

currently in January which is well

carnival month and I've had a lot of

questions of people asking ok can you

ask dr. Beckmann about the whole insulin

and protein thing again yes you know

they they want to know hey I'm doing all

this and it looks like I'm getting

healthy and I'm seeing all these success

stories while people going carnivore but

protein you know a lot of protein can

cause an insulin response any thought

yet on on that on the carnivore diet and

in general assistance yeah I sure do so

a lot of I made that an effort of of

research a few years ago and it was not

my findings these were I was relying on

the findings of earlier scientists so

these these were questions that had been

asked and answered and although my lab

is just starting up a slightly altered

version of that study which we can come

back to in a moment but the the some of

the data was that if you load the body

with amino acids so protein because it's

the amino acid that's going to have the

insulin effect or not so if you if the

blood is enriched with amino acids and

the glucose level is elevated then the

insulin spike from the glucose is

amplify

significantly with the cart with the

protein so the protein combined with

with carbohydrate is is insulin and

genic that will spike the insulin level

higher in contrast if it is a protein

spike or an amino acid load without a

glucose load then there is no

significant spike in insulin there's a

little hiccup of the as the amino acids

come past the pancreas and but it's not

it's nothing like what you had in the

hyperglycemic state and a part of this

is really the the likely reason for this

if we try to find the rational reason

which is fun to try to do why is the

body working that way we know that it

does and then we ask well why we go one

step further to try to see the design or

the reason for it in that case when

someone is eating glucose they can have

glucose with protein there it makes

sense to stimulate insulin to try to say

hey we are loaded with nutrient in the

blood let's get this out let's push it

into all the tissues and that really is

what insulin is facilitating among many

other things it is at its core anabolic

and and it wants to is so it needs

material to be pushed into the cells and

and an insulin will facilitate that

process thus giving some reason for

insulin being even higher when there's

high glucose and high amino acid in

contrast if there's high amino acid but

low glucose in the diet then the liver

is very busily making glucose through

this process of gluconeogenesis and

that's healthy it needs to happen in

order to maintain normal glycemia which

happens in world carnivore month if

someone's eating zero carbohydrate

they'll notice that their blood glucose

levels are perfectly normal

that's because of the livers ability to

pull almost it's almost totally from

lactate importantly it's not it's very

rarely from amino acids but the liver

will pull in lactate and convert that

lactate into glucose but that can't

happen unless insulin is low and so too

wrap this idea up if gluco if dietary

glucose is low but dietary protein is

elevated we cannot afford to have

insulin being spiked because that would

prevent the livers ability in this low

dietary glucose state from making

glucose because insulin turns that off

so we have separated that that event so

if protein is high but glucose is or

carbohydrate is low insulin stays low so

that the liver can continue to make

glucose from lactate and other precursor

molecules but mostly lactate okay so

someone who does have insulin resistance

if they go on on something like that

carnivore diet experiment it's actually

not a bad thing because it could help

them try to get more insulin sensitivity

I would suspect that would be the case

very strongly yes now of course I'm not

their doctor you neither of us is but

yes I would suspect if someone has

insulin resistance and they adopted a

zero carbohydrate diet and again I'm not

telling anyone to do it but I imagine

they would have pretty profound

improvements and insulin resistance

quite quite quickly

yeah so yeah because I guess I mean we

talked about that in our last interview

and how a low carbohydrate diet seems to

be the the more sustainable diet when it

comes to managing your instant of it

over time carnivore diets just another

x4 more extreme version of a low

carbohydrate diets it is yeah yeah and

one thing I will say in defense of a

carnivore diet to defend it but not

advocate it it is that there's something

wonderfully just pure about it there you

are not eating any processed food

everything you're eating is just real

substantial food there's a real part of

me that appreciates that part of the

diet that there's nothing fake about it

but yeah for the for the sake of the

average individual a low carbohydrate

diet is far more realistic achievable I

can say attempting to adhere to a

carnivore diet in a family with a wife

and little kids that that is a challenge

in and of itself that that's so I if I'm

projecting that

the average individual whose

insulin-resistant and wanting to try

things I as powerful as the carnivore

diet could be and very very likely is

you don't have to go that far we know

from earlier publications that if you

put people on a low-carb versus a

low-fat diet and the low-carb diet can

be calorie unrestricted their insulin

levels will come down four times more

than the insulin drop you have in the

low-fat diet

so just low-carb is extremely powerful

for lowering insulin which itself is

evidence of the body becoming more

insulin sensitive it just doesn't need

as much insulin to get the job done and

that is powerful mm-hmm and then another

question that people want me to ask was

about ketone levels when you're

carnivore to because some people don't

have high ketone levels when they're

carnivore but now they're wondering is

it because because we talked about keep

your levels or ketones and recently

using it as a surrogate marker yes so if

I if I'm eating a strict carnivore diet

but I don't have high ketone levels is

what do you think's happening with my

insulin level yeah yeah that's a good

question what I suspect happens in the

person is that their ketone levels are

probably quite high at the beginning of

the carnivore experiment and then they

start to steadily go down almost this

sort of diminishing returns that also

reflects the diminishing utility in

using ketones themselves as an inverse

indicator of insulin so one of the

problems is the person is just adapting

to using their ketones better so a high

level of ketone in the blood simply

means you're making more ketone than

you're using that's not optimal over

time accordingly the body being

abhorring anything that's not optimal

starts to use more of this nutrient

that's being produced namely the ketones

so the fact that ketones I suspect

strongly would be higher at the

beginning of the experiment and within

maybe a couple weeks

they're now lower and the person's

having a hard time achieving that same

level of ketosis I would say that's not

the protein inhibiting ketogenesis is

rather an enhanced

utilization of the ketones themselves

okay so so you don't have to be at the

1.5 mil Imola and nutritional ketosis

level yeah it's actually you're probably

at either low to the low point

something's and that's a healthy state

oh I would absolutely say it is yeah

okay

and then I want to get into the fat

because I know you what you you have a

few ideas around fat but the first part

of fat I want to get into is I got since

view Brad Marshall recently around his

croissant diet and how he was adding

stearic acids to croissants and making

them very fatty what are your thoughts

there from a insulin response and what

what could happen there by adding all

these saturated fats and pacifically

stearic acid along with carbohydrate and

what it's doing to the body yeah now I

not knowing any of the details of his of

his blood biochemistry although I heard

about that experiment stearic acid is an

interesting fatty acid it's particularly

enriched in chocolate or cocoa beans and

it has a higher oxidative priority than

than palmitate which is the most common

saturated fat that we eat by that I mean

when a person eats long-chain fats all

the way from like omega-6 and omega-3 or

or or longer than that I should say as

they start going down to two stearic

acid which is 18 carbons and so to our

alpha linolenic acid which is an omega-3

and linoleic acid which is an omega-6

and then you go on shorter to or you

start to break off the unsaturation so

you take the 18 carbon polyunsaturated

fat and then you turn it into the purely

saturated fat 18 carbon which is stearic

acid alpha linolenic acid I promise I'll

make this relevant and clear so if we

look at when a person eats a diet of

mixed fats which we do all the time

certain fats are burned more readily

than other fats whereas other fats are

stored more readily than they are burned

palmitate is a fat that the body likes

to store

stearic acid is a and thus if you look

at the long-chain fats palmitate is the

one that is the least burned so the body

will burn it last if you will if you eat

the all these mixed fats and they're all

kind of lining up and forming a queue to

get on the fat-burning bus palmitate

will be at the back ahead of that will

be stearic acid so this is a fact that

is more preferentially burned than

palmitate or pull medic acid is

interestingly the alpha linolenic acid

from from like flaxseed is the most

burned of all of them the body has a

very high preference to burn that but

that's kind of beside the point

so I I wonder whether some of his

improvements come from the body being

forced to burn a fat now that it didn't

have to before and that is a necessary

part of someone becoming fat adapted

which itself is a part of something that

we refer to as metabolic flexibility and

at the risk of introducing you know

another idea into this answer one of the

problems in the modern world especially

in someone with insulin resistance is

that they are losing their metabolic

flexibility the body is very much a

hybrid engine burning fat in

carbohydrate as the person starts to

have a higher intensity of an activity

the body will burn more and more fat in

contrast or sorry more and more glucose

in contrast as intensity starts to

subside like you and I sitting here the

body is predominantly burning fat and

the ability to shift between these fuels

as intensity is going up using glucose

or down using fat is metabolic

flexibility in contrast the person with

insulin resistance and Beyond they're

stuck in what I say sugar burning mode

they're stuck in glucose burning mode so

even if they were to sit down like us

and talk whereas our metabolic fuel

starts to shift more towards fat they're

stuck burning burning glucose a part of

that could just be an inability of well

at the risk of oversimplifying it

mitochondria that are just reluctant to

burn fat the fact that stearic acid

demands

be to be burned more than palmitic acid

does which is the conventionally

predominant saturated fat in our diet it

could that then could lead to the the

mitochondria in the body and I would say

particularly the muscle cells getting

the signal hey there's a fat coming in

now that we have to burn let's build up

all the metabolic machinery to burn this

fat more so activate the production of

more mitochondria put in place more of

the enzymes involved in in the burning

of the fat ultimately okay so what you

were just mentioning did is it a good

thing that we're exposed to a variety of

fats then to maintain maintain the

health oh yeah yes that's a great

question I'm glad you brought it up yes

I argue that it is absolutely healthy

our diet has shrunk almost completely to

long-chain fats and that's kind of

palmitate and to lesser degrees theory

or stearic acid what we what those in

the low-carb community have started

eating more medium chain fats and that's

when you have like twelve carbons to

around six carbons or so and those are

in a medium chain triglycerides or MCT

but in the diet conventionally they're

not too prevalent unless you're seeking

them out coconut oil

however is a very good source of medium

chain fats and then lastly we have

almost a completely forgotten family or

you know kid the third you know the the

third kid in the family the short chain

fats those used to be much more

prevalent because we get those from

bacteria now interestingly there's two

sources of these in the body one is that

our gut bacteria make them so our gut

bacteria can take fiber particularly

soluble fiber and and turn it into short

chain fats and then we those can get

absorbed into the bloodstream and

they're very beneficial they increase

some things I just mentioned

mitochondrial biogenesis they're very

ketogenic so the the the bacteria in our

guts can make them now I can't tell you

which family of bacteria in the millions

they're all it seems like there always

are

um and I would encourage anyone

listening to this anytime someone

speaking about gut bacteria with too

much certainty be very skeptical because

the more I learn about the gut bacteria

the more I think we just don't really

know much yet I'm not saying they're not

important

but I don't think we I don't think we've

cracked that code yet but nevertheless

short chain fats can come from dietary

fiber that is metabolized now second and

what I believe is the last part of the

diet it is that we don't have any

fermented foods in our in our diet

anymore it's very very rarely our our

early ancestors would have certainly

fermented and whatever they could and

even things like like wine itself that's

a fermented food vinegar apple cider

vinegar is you know when wine has been

even one step further fermented and I'm

a huge advocate of apple cider vinegar

it has demonstrable improvements on

insulin sensitivity in in in people with

type 2 diabetes you can just give them a

couple tablespoons a day and do nothing

else and their insulin sensitivity

starts to get better so incorporating

those short chain fats into the diet I

believe is very important and the medium

chain fats which again in the low carb

ketogenic diet er more appreciated but

but finding ways to incorporate those

and then the long-chain fats will always

get and then earlier I'd mentioned the

kind of oxidative priority queue line

getting on the fat burning bus these

short chain fats there's no I'm unaware

of any capacity in the body to store

those so when we eat short chain fats we

get them into our blood we have to burn

them and that might be part of the

reason why the liver and other tissues

start to develop so many more

mitochondria it's because of their

seeing a lot of those short chain fats

the body's not going to store them

they're going to burn they're going to

burn them medium chain fats can be

stored a little but they're far more

preferentially oxidized and there also

isn't a rate limiter on either of these

the short or the medium chain if they

come into the cell which they do very

readily

they also very readily move right into

the mitochondria they don't need an

escort to get from the

outside the mitochondria in the

mitochondria to be burned in stark

contrast to the long-chain fats there is

an escort there's a molecule that waits

for them essentially at the surface of

them out of country and then we'll bring

them in so they have to be escorted in

and so the rate at which you're burning

those is going to be less than what

you're burning this with which you're

burning the short and medium because the

short meeting will just come in as

quickly as they want the long-chain

there it's kind of throttled by this

this transporter that that will be

bringing them in to be burned you know

very orderly mm-hmm and then so when it

comes to vegetable oils which everyone

also tries to avoid and talks about so

much in the community where do they form

into this picture yeah yeah so invoking

vegetable oils means we discuss linoleic

acid that is the it's again an eighteen

carbon like stearic acid is but this is

a polyunsaturated omega-6 it is

essential in the diet so just to make

that clear

we do need omega-6 fats just like we

need omega-3 and and so it's a good

thing then they're everywhere any fat

you eat from a natural source like an

animal source is going to have linoleic

acid in it and of course those are fats

that we've eaten since the beginning of

time as a species so we're going to get

enough we don't need a lot we're going

to get enough the problem now is that at

least in the US and I'm sure it's

similar around the the Western diet

eating world which is far beyond the

west these days as I've spoken

throughout Asia and the Middle East but

the linoleic acid from soybean oil

soybean oil itself has become the single

most consumed fat in in the human diet

it went from nothing 100 years ago and I

mean it there's some pretty compelling

there's one compelling figure that I'm

thinking of right now looking at US

dietary consumption where this fat went

from just zero in around 1910 1920

started to climb climb climb climb

climbing now it beats out any other

single source of fat in the diet so we

eat more soybean oil

more fat as soybean oil than any other

fat in in the Western diet and that is

it ought to be shocking

particularly when we appreciate that

this fat linoleic acid is also

exceedingly well I'm gonna use the word

I have before in this conversation but I

mean use it differently it's exceedingly

well oxidized now when I said oxidized

earlier about burning a fat to be clear

I should have said beta oxidized so beta

oxidation is the process of taking a fat

and breaking it down to burn it in

contrast when you have a fed that it's

just purely oxidized by that I mean it

has bumped into a reactive oxygen

molecule like oxidative stress molecules

and this oxidative stress molecule has

now kind of conveyed that oxidative

stress onto the fat and linoleic acid is

very well oxidized which is not a good

thing it means it becomes pathogenic and

dangerous very quickly and it becomes

this molecule called four hydroxy non

enol for H and E and among other things

for H and E will make fat cells very

sick and and force them to grow through

a manner of hypertrophy so people will

talk about the personal fat threshold

and I think rightly so where it's this

idea that a person's body has a certain

fat level beyond which it now starts to

become metabolically sick namely insulin

resistance I believe we can look at that

personal fat threshold at the level of

the fat cell and essentially if a fat

cell is growing through hypertrophy

rather than the fat tissue growing

through hyperplasia so making more fat

cells that is bad hypertrophy is a sick

hypertrophic fat cells a sick fat cell

hyperplasia

fat cells are healthy they might be the

person may be fatter than they want to

be but they're going to be very insulin

sensitive and metabolically fine

linoleic acid once it's oxidized to for

H and E and we have that product of for

H and E it pushes the fat cells to

hypertrophic growth and blocks the

hyperplastic growth so if someone's

eating a diet that's wanting their fat

cells to get big so they have ample

calories and they have insulin being

elevated the

tissue is going to want to grow to store

that energy and insulin tells the body

to store energy if for H and E is high

because of high say soybean oil

consumption it's going to push that fat

grow through hypertrophy which is

decidedly unhealthy

in contrast the person who's avoiding

seed oils but still eating foods that

are going to keep their insulin too high

in calories that are too I then they're

an ample calories to support their

growth the fat cells will more likely

grow through hyperplastic expansion

interesting so taking us back to the the

bakery if you've got baked goods and

there's all these oxidized badly

oxidized vegetables made in the process

there plus you're getting all this

carbohydrate and you're going to get an

insulin lift you're getting a double

whammy because you're going to be

slicing through the carbohydrate plus

the way the food is made has got these

oxidize oils and as you're saying that's

actually causing individual fat cells to

want to grow bigger versus growing more

fat cells for the hypertrophy scenario

and that's just like a combination

that's just not good for us oh yeah I'd

say it's a perfect storm but you made me

think of another idea if I were to get

croissants here in the US I guarantee

the main fat is probably going to be

some soybean oil or some form corn oil

or something some seed oil as opposed to

that guy's experiment where he is

deliberately enriching the croissants

with the non seed oil fat with stearic

acid not only is it not eliciting that

same disastrous effect on the fat cells

but it also is again so readily burned

that could be a part of another part of

the magic that he saw

yeah and bread also talks about that

because he's a he's been a pig farmer

and how the the feed to the pigs has

changed so much and the quality of the

fats the difference between European

pigs and American pigs but usually what

something else I remember is that it's

meant to be that if you've got someone

who's got a big tummy like a fat tummy

if you product if it's a soft tummy

that's a better indicator than if it's a

hard oh yeah honey so hard fat versus

our software

is that what's it tied into this

hyperplasia hypertrophy yeah actually

that's actually a different situation

where if it's if it's I always joked

that if it jiggles it's good and that's

what kind of what you're talking about

with regards to is it polka ball or is

it not that's generally going to be a

difference of is it is it subcutaneous

fat or is it visceral fat so the person

who's fat is jiggly and squishy

that is subcutaneous that's right

beneath the skin that generally is

healthier in a number of ways it has

less macrophage invasion so it's less

inflammatory typically it produces more

leptin which is itself a metabolically

beneficial hormone and then in contrast

if we look at the visceral fat that is a

person whose stomach has fat at one

layer deeper in the body and then it has

the muscle over top of it so the fat is

accumulating beneath the muscle layer so

if you poked that person's belly you're

feeling that muscle of the abs and even

it might feel even harder than normal

because it's being pushed out and

somewhat distended so that muscle is

stretched and of course as a muscle is

stretched it is more firm so in the

person who has a big round belly that's

hard and you slap it that's likely

assigned them of them having more

visceral fat hmm okay and just also

bringing this into context here because

we're talking all about insulin

resistance so someone who's on a

high-fat diet the the type of fats that

used to eat is important too from an

insulin response

point is it yeah yeah that's a good

question um probably I I would argue

that if someone is you know I have to

I'm speculating a bit Gary it's a good

that's an astute question I don't have a

great answer for it because you've

mentioned the insulin spiking effects of

the fat right mmm yeah so dietary fat

alone does not increase insulin so the

person well their insulin whatever it is

before they take the fat the insulin

just hums along as normal there's no

significant bump from insulin alone and

some people have shared studies looking

at adding fat to an oil adding sorry

adding oil to a coffee and there was a

little hiccup

of insulin but was not statistically

significant and thus we can't say there

was an effect I mean it was so slight

and indeed it did not reach statistical

significance in fact it wasn't it wasn't

even close

so we we can't answer say that was that

there were difference so eating fat

alone does not change insulin now we

don't often just eat fat alone now those

in the low-carb Orkut especially I

should say keto community they do they

may directly add fat to things and I

would just say that if someone's trying

to lose weight through low carb diet

then not to do that

just eat fat as it comes with the real

foods you're eating indeed I often just

say eat fat as it comes with the protein

that you're prioritizing in your diet

but but nevertheless the fat alone won't

have an effect and I would say that if

someone is eating a fat with an insulin

spike in carbohydrate palmitate which is

the most common of the saturated fats it

may be one to avoid but that's almost a

whole other topic that I don't know if

we want to get into but but in general I

guess it's easy enough just to say in

general you don't want to be spiking

insulin and eating fat so you know

something like typically like a

croissant it would be something to be

very careful with a bagel you know

that's where it's or a doughnut high fat

and high carbohydrate that's not an

optimal mix mm-hmm it's like throwing a

grenade and your body is it yeah yeah

yeah metabolic grenade that's right

I want to ask you about frequency of

eating because bringing us back into the

carnival-themed where I've noticed a lot

of people when they go very strict

carnivore they also tend to go Oh mad

so one meal a day does do you think then

a lot of the benefit is coming from

reducing your eating window so we're

having a three thousand calorie meal or

even bigger and so for some people one

very small window what that's doing for

an insulin response point of view oh

yeah I am if someone is wanting to

improve insulin sensitivity or maintain

it I strongly contend that an optimal

way and ideal way of doing that is to

eat less

frequently the longer a person can go

through the day with low insulin I

believe the better that will be if if

for example you look at someone who's

just woke waking up in the morning their

insulin levels have had time to lower

throughout the night and indeed when

they wake up in the morning insulin is

going to be low and how unfortunate and

they are burning more fat than than they

would have otherwise been burning and

and that may be evident in some people

being in a mild very mild low level of

ketosis maybe point three point four

you know millimolar that can happen that

is evidence of fat burning and how

unfortunate then that they immediately

stopped that fat burning and go right to

sugar burning mode by eating a starchy

sugary breakfast as so many people do

around the world and then if specially

if their insulin resistance their

insulin levels have spiked around two to

three hours later if their insulin

resistant and most adults are then they

will have a rebound very commonly a

rebound hypoglycemia even though they're

not clinically hypoglycemic it may just

they're normally burning their normal

glucose I'm not going to know this a

milli molar for any of the Commonwealth

listeners so I'm sorry I can't I have to

lean into the American in me now

although I'm from Canada so I'm ashamed

that I can't do this I'm ashamed so well

if I all speak in just general terms so

their their their glucose levels are

normal they under state over shoot I

mean the insulin release was was not

commensurate with the glucose spike and

so now they have over the under they go

on below their glucose levels that

period can be sensed as an immediate

hunger that'll happen two to three hours

in so what do they do they go have a

snack and that immediately bums seeing

slim back up and then three or so hours

later is the insolence trying to come

back down they they sense that little

relative hypoglycemia again they bump it

up again they bump it up again so

they're eating six times a day and

there's not a single hint of fat burning

for coal parts of the day and insulin

elevated and this I believe not only

does this have impact with insulin

doesn't itself that

faithfulness elevated all day in inflam

itself and create resistance to itself

too much insulin causes influence isn't

but it also is dangerous I believe for

brain disorders where there is this

phenomenon that I mentioned earlier of

glucose hypometabolism many neurological

disorders Alzheimer's disease has a

detectable reduction in brain glucose

use people who suffer from migraines

have a technical reduction in brain

glucose a Parkinson's disease if those

instances are at least partly driven by

the brain not being able to get all of

its energy through there's only one

other fuel the brain can use and that's

ketone and yet if insulin is elevated

every moment of the day the brain just

forced to go without an alternative fuel

that it was very desperately hoping in

bed and get a Tanz on eating every three

hours we ensure especially if it's

conventional high our meals and snacks

we ensure the brain gets no whiff of

ketone and ensure that we are in sugar

burning mode all day and if someone's

trying to lose weight and you don't

wanna do it sugar you're not going to do

it to not to get into fat-burning let me

come down so I strongly so make it to

make that clear I am a strong advocate

eating less frequently the person at

most e to the three meals per day and I

would argue that many would thrive on

simply eating too and it seems like that

seems a natural progression and the

success stories that I hear that people

fall into that too sometimes one big one

yeah very very seldomly three meals in a

day so the one challenge I'll say in one

meal a day is I've experimented as well

um just because I my priority in life as

husband and father so family matters

more than anything

that means dinnertime is important that

social time although my family is such

an early morning family the breakfast is

always social as well but if I didn't

eat dinner with my family it would be

weird as we're all sitting there and

then I'll be looking at daddy not eating

but if I don't eat breakfast no one

notices it all there's always

just enough of a fuss just getting ready

for the day I always make breakfast for

the family in the mornings and like this

morning it was some little egg cheese

bacon muffins but I was fasting this

morning they don't they don't notice a

bit no one notices I'm talking with them

we're all being very social it's no one

notices so if I try one meal a day my

point the ends up being dinner it's a

meal that I eat it is so difficult for

me not to overeat to the point that it's

going to affect my sleep I say that is

someone who I'm a terrible sleeper and I

have found without any ambiguity I have

my best night's sleep I'm not even close

to full I'm just no so now I guess my

point is I tend to eat a big lunch and

then I eat a mild small dinner whatever

the family is eating for dinner um if I

can make it for me low carb easily then

I will but if it's the meals and we have

to deny our carb I am NOT gonna skip

dinner as my family I nevertheless I try

to control the portion sizes and that is

really easy for me to do if I've had a

big lunch it's easy to keep small dinner

and make my bed with a relatively your

stomach since I sleep so much better not

quantifiably matter is I finally bought

a little sleep tracker ring I absolutely

you know I have the data to validate

what I long suspected yeah interesting

so again that personalization in your

case where you know what time of day you

eat even affects the quality of your

sleep yeah now I would say someone

listening to this could just be shaking

their head saying no no no no I just do

better

eating dinner hey awesome I I'm not at

all claiming that my way is the way to

do it

I just find I have a hard time

controlling my appetite if I'm waiting

if everything goes into dinner now I

haven't been able to do it sometimes

well but often I get hungry to the point

that I overeat I'm asleep and moving

away from eating frequency then some

actually that gets me thinking you talks

about the apple cider vinegar

is that something that someone can do if

they're gonna what you mentioned that if

you happen to be in a family setting and

they eating a higher carb situation if

you put more vinegar on the food will

that have a blunter effect oh yeah

insulin response that you're gonna guess

it sure will it sure will yeah so

remember vinegar is a short chain fat

and in fat does mitigate some of the

insulin effect of a carbohydrate that

that is real so yes if someone is eating

a salad or they have the opportunity of

adding more oil and vinegar do it

alternatively what I love to do I will I

drink a lot of club soda I love just

just sparkling water and I will add a

shot of apple cider vinegar to that and

that'll be what I'm drinking during the

meal now also in addition to a little

bit of cider vinegar

we still or sparkling water or some can

put the carbohydrates at the end of the

meal that has it the even if they eat

the same amount same grams of

carbohydrate and everything else is the

same

there's some study not long ago

published it finds if you put the

carbohydrate at the end of the meal the

insulin effect of the overall meal is

significantly lower than this carb dirt

upfront okay good tip there another one

then you mentioned about the snacking

and how this I mentioned I was going to

bring about frequency I just thought of

it now but so try to avoid snacking but

then when someone's going from a place

where they're just they it's their

hunger problem they're just being hungry

all the time and now they're going

carnival or ketogenic whatever it

happens to be to try to get the better

response but they're looking for just

things to help them break up the hunger

in between what's your thoughts in on

these on high-fat meal replacements yeah

yeah I think that a a high-fat meal

replacement shake which ideally is also

going to be high protein I'll emphasize

that if it's just pure fat I don't think

that does satiating so a higher fat

higher protein can be very effective and

we looked at as a meal not as a snack

and the last thing to do is to have that

be a drink that someone's eating with a

meal that is not how those are commute a

full disclosure in the next few months I

have a shake coming out that I've helped

make someone you that'll be available

online helps HLT eight but what we've

liberally tried to do is put it in a

ratio of a one to one fat to protein by

mass I'm with in significant number of

carbs net carbs like two grams but a one

to one that I believe I'd oak with a

divine ratio that we see that in eggs we

see that in mistake

I consider the most nutritious foods on

the planet by mass this one the one of

fat protein that's that again can use

very effectively it is an easy way to

get good nourishment but it shouldn't be

used as a snack and never coupled with a

normal meal it's not a shake that you're

drinking with your fries and hamburger

that is not a low calorie food a meal

and in themself it should be looked at

it ok so again people who are not doing

carnival this month but they're doing

ketogenic then and I know the keto

shakes are quite popular it sounds like

juice frequency window eating maybe have

the shake to start today as you said but

then later in the day you can have your

bigger real food meal and hopefully

there you're not going to get to meet

too many insulin responses yes yeah yeah

that's right so the power of say

starting the morning if someone likes to

eat something for breakfast which I

totally understand focus on protein and

fat not only are those the two essential

macronutrients in the human diet

carbohydrates are not essential to focus

on what's essential is essential fat is

essential amino acid you also meet in

the two macros that have the least or no

effect on insulin that's a great way to

keep the body burning fat and help it

maintain that high degree of metabolic

flexibility yeah otherwise yeah lots of

scrambled eggs right absolutely

absolutely scrambled eggs and butter yes

that's an easy one

yes it sure is great I'm just trying to

think I mean I got so many questions

that people want to ask you I'm just

trying to think of a lot of hands

hopefully I've I've covered most of them

I've covered all the big topics I

believe is there anything else that's

come out around insulin resistance that

we haven't visited since our last talk

um yell probably there are in fact one

study comes right to my mind

as much as we talk about glucose and the

insulin spike a lot of there is a really

there's more and more evidence another

study just published finding that

fructose itself pure fructose like fruit

juice is really unhealthy for the fur

and it promotes liver fat accumulation

and then and then liver insulin

resistance and when the liver becomes

insulin resistant it starts releasing

fat and glucose and in that of course

the high glucose is driving the insulin

even higher and that's just feeding the

whole systemic insulin resistance

so another encouragement if we didn't

talk about last time don't drink fruit

if you want fruit eat it in controlled

amounts don't don't drink it ever good

points yeah perfect

well Ben that was again a fascinating

talk I learned so much from you every

time and hopefully I've added value to

other people have also listened to your

first interview just a treasure trove of

information every time well I love the

opportunity I really do as an academic

there's one of the most frustrating

things about it is you feel like you're

learning a lot answering really neat

questions and if you just published them

in paper

no one ever exceeds it and so the

opportunity to come on something like

that's like you're doing here is such a

fun way to convey the little bits these

little pearls of wisdom that I've been

able to gather my own and others yeah

and that's why I enjoy you know good

because you are you're on the cutting

edge you're in the lab you're

discovering things and then you're

breeding other papers and so people like

me need PhDs like you to be able to read

these things and then say hey this is

what science is finding and it's up to

you to decide what you want to do so yep

yeah well speaking of which from my lab

we got some really neat papers that were

in the process of preparing so we'll

have some data looking at how ketones

accelerate metabolic rate from that

issue and people will harden for we have

data showing how ketones enhance memory

and learning in the brain through a

novel mechanism so something that's not

before we have another paper anyway we

have we have some cool stuff coming out

all the time that's us it ends yeah this

is the time when I want you to share how

people can follow you and keep up to

date with all these papers that you can

be sharing right yes thank you yeah so I

on Twitter and Instagram I regularly

share the latest research through those

accounts that's been Whitman AMA and

we'll see Instagram then Facebook I have

a public profile page which is just

Benjamin but um I think maybe Benjamin

bhp and I've been trying to get Facebook

a little more time

fine I give it a little bit like

sometimes it's a little too much we're

trying to work that some water yeah well

I'll link to all those in the show notes

for everyone but again Ben I just want

to say thank you again for sure

a pose of wisdom well thanks so much

Gary what a fun opportunity