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My name is A.J. Withers
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and i am a queer, disabled community organizer
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in Toronto around anti-poverty and disability, uh, issues.
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And i have a book coming out in January
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called "Disability Politics And Theory"
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from Fernwood Press.
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Hi my name is Karine,
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and i'm a member of Common Cause
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and i'm also a health professional in a community health centre.
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Um, i was also, i also had before a disability, a temporary disability,
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and i also have a sister that has a permanent disability,
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that is living currently with a disability.
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So this is why i wanted to be part of this, uh, interview.
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My name's Bryan, i'm with Common Cause, Toronto.
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My name is Ann, i'm a member of Common Cause,
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i also work with people with developmental disabilities,
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and [?]
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Disability is a social construct,
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and depending on the culture, the time, or the context one is in,
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will determine whether or not disability is marked on that person.
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So in some places and times and cultures,
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something that's considered disability
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isn't considered disability in other times, places, or cultures.
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And fundamentally, disabled people are constructed
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as people who are considered abnormal or unwanted or unfit
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within a given economy or social system.
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The medical model of disability
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is the mainstream way that people understand disability as a pathology or a sickness,
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and, um, it... seeks out, um pathologies or abnormalities,
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and works to find them and fix them, or cure them,
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and failing that, accommodate them.
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The social model of disability
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is a model of understanding disability
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which presents a separation between impairment,
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so the physical or mental characteristics
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that a person has that may be different from what other people typically have,
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and disability or disablement, so the social process that oppresses people with disabilities,
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through different institutions in our society,
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such as work, school, the state.
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So the social model of disability
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what i find important to remember,
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locates the problem of disability, the challenges,
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in the society,
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rather than in the individual,
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and looks to address those through social action
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rather than through changing individuals with disabiities.
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Radical disability politics
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is a shift from the mainstream way of thinking about disability.
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The mainstream way is a medical model.
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The disabilities studies canon, um,
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is a way that incorporates an understanding of oppression
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while still adopting some of the medical model.
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And a radical disability analysis
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is a complete rejection of the medical model
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as something that has been implemented
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in order to maintain power and control
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for people with privilege in society.
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And fundamentally questioning that
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and recognizing disability as an entirely social construct.
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The idea of what's "normal",
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that disability is constructed as being abnormal,
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was brought into the english language around the 1850's, around the time of eugenics.
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And that idea that, um, many times we think of as being always there,
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was findamentally rooted in, um,
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the creation of an Industrial Revolution, um
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changing capitalism to the capitalism that we know now.
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and constructing workers as, um, normal bodies that could function within factories.
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And so, all of the people that couldn't function within factories became abnormal or disabled.
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And up til the Industrial Revolution,
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things like intellectual disabilities and oftentimes physical disabilities
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weren't thought of as disabilities at all.
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They were just thought of as human variance.
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The description of disability and the marginalization of disabled people
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is really, um, fundamental to the success of capitalism,
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both in marginalising people that aren't participating in the capitalist system
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the way that the system requires people to participate,
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but also in the way that, um, disabled people, um non-disabled people are given a threat.
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So, disabled people are often times forced to live in poverty,
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marginalized, experience any number of different kinds of segregation,
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and that's a threat to people that aren't seen as disabled to be productive,
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and to work in the capitalist system, and if they don't there are these consequences,
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and disabled lives are the manifestation of that kind of consequence.
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For me, for me, the kind of, the ways that, that work, or or labour, um,
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interacts with disability or ability,
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in thinking about it more, i kind of appreciate...
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i'm starting to appreciate more and more how important, um, it actually is, for me.
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And i also see the importance of of of people that i work with
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and people that i have worked with all throughout my life, like,
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conceiving of themselves as able-bodied,
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while also terrified of or recognizing the lie of that.
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i think it's a rarity for me to have actually like shared a workplace with anybody
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that i would, in, kind of like full consideration consider an able-bodied person
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But it's centrally important that they consider themselves able-bodied,
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uh, and we always have, um no matter how absurd that actually is.
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It's a really substantial disciplining mechanism
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that's almost bred in the bone of almost every single working class person i know.
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And that's chasing after being
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the strongest, most productive worker
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not just for the sake of your boss
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but almost for your sake as well.
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Um, so, i think it's fundamentally important that we understand
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the associations that capital has,
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or the importance that capital puts on our bodies,
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and it's important that we understand
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the ways in which we've been hoodwinked into, into agreeing with that.
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For me, what i do for a job?
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I work with people who have a label of developmental or intellectual disabilities.
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Um, i've seen how, first of all, many of the situations they're put in in terms of work
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can be extremely exploitative,
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like working for much less than minimum wage, in environments that like,
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what used to be called sheltered workshops,
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where they do sort of fairly like, menial, repetitive tasks for an extremely low wage.
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Sort of the pressure in a way that's put on people to work in order to be sort of...
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that that's what makes your life meaningful
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as like a functioning adult, is that you should be working.
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The ways in which disablement or being disabled interacts with that
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i think is kind of, isn't quite as, isn't quite as descriptive as what it means to be able bodied.
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As opposed to disabled.
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Um, and,like, every every minute of the working day and even after work...
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like, myself and almost every single person i've ever worked with
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is in this battle to assert that they're actually physically capable of doing things
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that their only, the only reason that they're doing them,
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and the kind of, the degree to which they're pushing themselves
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is because it's their job.
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We conceive of ourselves as completely competent, independent, able-bodied people
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and really nothing could be further from the truth.
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The Canadian state is intertwined with capitalism,
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um, but also, um, i think that one of the things that disabilty politics can bring
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is like an understanding of people as individuals,
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and negotiating different people's needs,
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and that that, um, can help work to undermine the state and the state's power,
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and really looking at what people, um, need, and how we can provide community support
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and build community strength is a really important contribution
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that radical disability politics can make to anarchism and to the ways that we understand the state.
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So i think the state plays, like, many roles.
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And... it has a fair bit of influence in like the lives of many disabled people.
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Um, the state often makes decisions about who is disabled or not disabled,
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who's eligible for different incomes or programs.
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The state also, in Canada, administers medical and social services
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that can, um, impact on the lives of disabled people.
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Like for example in the past, large institutions...
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um, i think when you're talking about the state and disability
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something that you have to talk about eugenics.
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Um, so you can look at the idea of, like, the body politic, right?
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and how the state is in some ways invested
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in having, like, a healthy or fit population.
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Um, and, in the past we've seen, uh,
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the state impose eugenic policies on PWD
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for example, like, forced sterilization of PWD
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in Alberta and BC.
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For me, ive done a lot of research into anarcho-primitivism,
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ive also done a lot of research into, uh, historically,
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the eugenic movement and the role that anarchists played there.
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And some anarchists were very against eugenics,
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like Kropotkin.
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But other anarchists were eugenicists,
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and actively called for the sterilization of disabled people, or the "unfit".
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Um, and i think that that's something that's important
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for disabled people to recognize
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has been the case in all movements,
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and there have been elements of that, um, throughout history.
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And that doesnt necessarily reflect all anarchism.
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And i think that people can make that distinction,
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but i think that its really important
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that people are accountable to,
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that anarchists are accountable to the eugenic past,
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and the eugenic present,
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through anarcho-primitivism
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and actively challenge it
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and actively work against it,
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in order to how the solidarity that disabled people i think need to see
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in order for there to be mroe trust in building a more collective movement.
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It's just one component,
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their ableism is just one component
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of like a holistically misanthropic social outlook.
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Almost more misanthropic,
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almost more anti-person,
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or anti...
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not just anti worker,
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but like, anti-person,
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almost as misanthropic as capitalism
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or potentially even more so.
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Theres a number of different ways
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that people view primitivism
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but fundamentally, uh, in order to have this utopic view for certain people
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oftentimes very privileged people,
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um, disabled people have to die.
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And that is very sad,
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and its not ok,
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and i think its important for all anarchists
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because primitivism is so linked to anarchism
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and claims to be a part of anarchism,
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that anarchists challenge that,
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and confront that,
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and work to express that that is not their view.
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And to ensure that disabled people are included and valued.
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There's lots of different kinds of anarchism,
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and um, for me,
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any kind of good politically sound form of anarchism
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has a strong anti-oppression analysis.
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And disability is a really key component of that.
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Because of the 1st principle, one of the 1st principle of anarchism
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is everyone gives what they can
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and they take what they need.
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So thats exactly what PWD need, so they can participate,uh, fully
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within their own capability,
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uh, in the society.
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And also take what they need, the needs, the support, they need
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they can take it from the society.
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So as someone that believes in radical disability politics and anarchism
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i think that they both, like for me theyre inseparable.
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My understanding of mutual aid
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isn't so much that it's an aspiration that anarchists have,
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but that it's actually a recognition that it's one of the primary elements of our world.
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and it goes unrecognized, um, that there is an interdependence.
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i think that mutual aid and ... if we focus more on the fact that
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everything that we do is collective, um,
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it offers a lot more possibilities
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for a society in which people who may have differing abilities, different needs
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can be respected as equal members of that society
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and the contributions they can make, and they do make are respected,
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and that it's seen that their, all of our successes or failures
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and the various things that we try are based on everyones work,
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and not just you as an individual.
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which i think is ultimately positive for all people,
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but especially those people who are are in society considered disabled.
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And often times in disability communities
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that manifests in "care collectives",
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and people coming together to help folks
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you know, go pee or make dinner or shop or whatever it is,
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but the acknowledgement that that's a reciprocal relationship,
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that the disabled person gets something from it,
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but the non-disabled person, or the person with different needs
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gets things from it as well,
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and that both of those roles are really meaningful and important.
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Um, but, mutual aid and the spirit of collectivity
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and acknowledging that interdependence, i think are super important,
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and, um, beyond like yknow a do-it-yourself culture,
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like in creating a do-it-together culture.
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Well, disabled people have been engaged in direct action for decades upon decades.
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And have participated in a lot of different really creative actions
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that have been acceptable for lots of different people,
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and I think that we can bring that creativity to all different kinds of organizing
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around direct action.
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and even just like case actions,
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where, um, disabled people have oftentimes fought Disability or Welfare to get what they need.
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Um, but also disabled people oftentimes
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instead of having our bodies treated as burdens or hazzards,
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use our bodies in ways that are really powerful in direct action.
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And i think that a lot of times people fall into boxes of what direct action means
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and what it looks like,
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and, and, broadening that box
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and making sure that it's inclusive and accessible to people is really important.
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And in doing that, oftentimes actions can be stronger and more powerful.
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We often exclude people with disabilities in our movements,
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or during our events,
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I think we don't, we often don't think about their issues,
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and, but, it's part of everybody's issues,
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because everybody at one point will be disabled,
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either temporarily or permanently.
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So it's something that affects everybody,
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every single person will be affected with disability issue.
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In terms of the way that people organize,
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um, often times radicals will view people's worth in a movement with how much they produce,
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and how productive they are.
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And that is just like a, an adoption of a capitalist value
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that's really unfortunate and problematic,
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and shifting that to value people for any number of ways that they participate in the community,
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beyond what's viewed as production,
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is really important
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and is something that I think a lot of anarchists really struggle with.
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So, collective responsibility is, um, sort of a concept that is present in anarchism
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that describes how,
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it sort of puts into practice I think our focus on the social over the individual.
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So not only am I responsible for the things that I do individually,
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but also the things that happen around me.
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Um, just to give a really quick practical example,
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if I'm in a political organization,
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and I didn't promise to make the poster,
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but someone else did,
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but I never took the time to ask them, you know, if they needed help,
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if the poster doesn't get made, it is also my responsibility as well as theirs.
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Right? Even though... so it's focusing on the social,
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sort of like taking precedence over the individual.
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Um, how I think that relates to disability that's important,
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is that it can also relate to issues around accessibility.
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Um, so that we would all have a collective responsibility
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to make the spaces that we work in politically,
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accessible to as many people as possible.
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I think what we should be trying for,
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is to create spaces where we are responsible for what we do,
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but where there's also support available,
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and where there's also a culture where it's OK to ask for that support when needed.
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Um, I think that in terms of mutual aid and collective responsibility,
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that it shouldn't be so much about
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"oh, ok, well we have to provide these accommodations for this person,
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and we have to make sure that there's a ramp for this person",
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and that kind of thing.
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As much as like building,
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sort of like building a broader culture of solidarity
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where we all take responsibility for ensuring that the space allows for as much as possible
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the full participation of anyone who would want to participate.
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One of the ways that anarchist organizations can structure themselves
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is implementing a culture within their organization
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that um automatically looks at accessibility,
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and interdependence,
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and ways of talking about meeting people's needs,
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and ensuring that people can get in the door,
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and can have meaningful participation in an organization.
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Um, but also ensuring that people have...
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that organizations put forward demands that are inclusive of disability issues,
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and are not tokenistic,
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but are, come from disabled people and from disabled communities
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around what we actually need and are fighting for.
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Like as a member of Common Cause
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with mostly just one other person in Common Cause,
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like, I started looking at some of this stuff,
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and tried to bring it to other people in the organization
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who maybe werent as familiar with it,
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or hadnt realyl had much interest in it.
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i think... sometimes theres a lack...
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i think people maybe had certain preconceptions
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about what radical disability politics were about.
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one of them maybe being that they're for certain people,
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that it's for disabled people.
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And i think what a lot of people maybe realize
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because we've seen some more interest in it,
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is that if affects...
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the things we're talking about in terms of, um,
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being either disabled by society, by work, by school,
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are things that a lot of people have experienced,
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but if youre not experiencing that,
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what youre experiencing is almost like a process of beig "abled"
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You're experiencing the other side of that,
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and that can also bring a lot of tensions, right?
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Like there can be...
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you can kind of feel like...
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even if youre having a really hard time
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like physically or emotionally,
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you dont want to let people know at your work
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because you're going to sort of fall into this other category or person.
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So I think what is important for anarchists to realize,
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& I think whats come out of some of the discussions I've had with other Common Cause members
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is that these questions of like um who is excluded and included in different spaces
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and sort of like how we support each other
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and how we place value on different activities
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I think is something that affects all people,
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and these politics are essential for understanding how we analyze the world
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and the kind of changes that we would want.
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Having an analysis that we don't want to be reformist,
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that like this movement shouldn't be a reformist movement,
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this should be a revolutionary movement,
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so although we wanna try to make people's life better on the day to day,
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like for example the Raise The Rates campaign
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on increasing the Ontario Works and ODSP
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so increasing the support programs, the money for programs up to 40%,
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will make their lives better,
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so we wanna fight for those things too,
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but we wanna have an analysis of like a revolutionary,
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like the end of capitalism and the state,
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not just trying to reform what the state is doing right now.
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So theres a lot of different things that, um, anarchist organizations can do,
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and there's really practical things,
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and there's kind of often times messier and harder, um, institutional things that can happen.
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So there's like an infinite number of issues that cross over
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and like I said before, I'm an anarchist and do radical disability work,
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and for me there's not a cross over,
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they're completely integrated,
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but, um, even for people that there's not this like basic issues
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around poverty and segregation, and like the forced encarceration
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of many many people who are labeled as disabled,
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um, the way that capitalism plays out in disabled people's lives.
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The different components that make up capitalism
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it's not just about how can anarchists engage in mass movements
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particularly structured around disability theory
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or mass struggles of disabled people,
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although that is stuff that has to be fought out,
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like in our cities, in our workplaces,
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issues of accessibility, um, uh, casualization of employment,
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or just like chronic unemployment.
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It's not just about how can anarchists participate in mass movements structured around disability,
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but how can a more thorough understanding of
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the importance of disability being incorporated within all the mass struggles that we have.
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Um, I think another thing that we can do
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is that, so then, when we start to get these ideas,
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even if it's just very like basic, new ideas,
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to start to bring that to some of our mass work,
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is trying to sort of link up different issues.
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Like a very basic example was, um,
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in like a mass organization that a number of us in Common Cause are part of,
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there was a campaign that was posed for free transit.
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And one of our members made an amendment to that
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to make it a campaign to make it free and accessible transit.
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So just this like, and this isnt someone who had any particular knowledge of disability,
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who would consider themselves disabled or anything like that,
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um, but from that it's become a part of the campaign
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where different disability groups are involved in that,
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and it's something that, there have been actions around accessibility
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and this isn't something Common Cause has done,
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but its something that we we're able to sort of introduce that,
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I think, um, too, even if we're not focusing on struggles that are specific to disability
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to try to see how we can bring that in,
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so if members are involved in anti-prison struggle,
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how can we bring an analysis around other institutions
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that exist that are disability focused?
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What's the relationship between psychiatric institutions and prisons?
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I think trying to sort of make those links,
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and to connect those struggles is a role that we can have
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because we tend to have members involved in a lot of different groups.
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Um, theres a bunch of different ways that people
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can work with different organizations,
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like neighbourhood communities, unions, and student groups.
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One of the ways is articulating disability politics
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in a way that makes sense to those organizations.
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So sometimes the way the conversation that you have with different groups
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is going to be slightly different.
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But around union organizing, talking about injured workers,
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and talking about capitalism and oppression,
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and, uh, the exclusion of disabled people
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and the impact that has on workers across the board.
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With respect to neighbourhood organizations,
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there's uh, every neighbourhood has disabled people in it,
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and that are a really vibrant, important part of every community,
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and so, working to help people understand that
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and recognize the places (?) where that is,
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and, uh, working with people to help build bridges,
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and incorporate disabled people and disability issues into that community.
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I don't think its utopic to, uh, to propose an abolition of social stratification,
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and in that disability is predominantly ...
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there's a difference between the conditions under which a human body finds itself,
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or is put in,
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and whether or not they're conceived of as disabled or able bodied.
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Um, like that, like you were saying , that is a social construction.
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And it's not utopic to um work towards the abolition of that social construction.
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I think it's also important to keep in mind that like
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many, if, like thinking about the future,
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and about like how a lot of the current social processes of disablement
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would be unnecessary
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and in a lot of ways unhelpful, right?
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Like the need to create the separation between deserving and undeserving poor,
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and to legitimize things in that way,
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like without that, the need to sort of label people as disabled,
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how that is helpful kind of goes away.
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And I would never think that in the future, if we lived without capitalism
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that like, what I have that could be described as mental illness would go away,
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but I would like to live in a world where I wouldn't have to worry about like
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seeking, like if i needed help, seeking it because of an employer finding out
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because of a box you check on a form when you apply for jobs or soemthing like that.
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Like that aspect of it that just makes things harder,
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like I don't think it's utopic to talk about that going away.